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Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2005 01:45 am
Quote:
January 2005 | 106
» Opinions »
After Van Gogh
How should the centre-left respond to the implosion of the multicultural ideal in the Netherlands?


Wouter Bos

Trevor Phillips, head of the Commission for Racial Equality, thinks he knows what has gone wrong in the Netherlands. He wrote recently: "By treating migrants as unwelcome strangers we risk turning people who came to us desperately wanting to be friends into the enemies we fear… the grim news from the Netherlands shows that the Dutch have succeeded in doing exactly that."

I think Phillips is wrong. The Netherlands has experienced an act of international terrorism that cannot be explained by Dutch circumstances alone. The man who killed the filmmaker Theo van Gogh was born in the Netherlands, and until three years ago was apparently well integrated. Not everything is known yet, but it seems that the combination of 9/11 and the death of his mother made him receptive to extremism. Mohammed B, as he is usually referred to, participated in a fundamentalist network inspired by a travelling Syrian Koran-teacher.

Politicians from right and left have explained the murder in terms of failed integration policies. From the right, it was said that the murder proved the failure of multiculturalism and that Dutch society should be much tougher on what it demands of the Muslim minority. From the left, it was argued by some, echoing Trevor Phillips, that the marginalisation of Muslims was in part responsible for the murder.

I think both views are wrong. The murder is more usefully seen as the Dutch version of the attacks on the World Trade Centre or Madrid. The motives of the murderer, and the way he was recruited and inspired, makes 11/2 our own 9/11. Militant Islamists recruit both well-integrated and badly integrated youngsters; they murder in Bali and Casablanca as they do in Amsterdam. And they have, incidentally, murdered many more Muslims than non-Muslims. If we see the murder as mainly the result of failed integration policies, we do exactly what the terrorists want: we place them alongside the genuinely marginalised Muslim youngsters in our society. But the truth is that they hate those youths as much as they hate everyone else who wants to live in our free, modern society.

If this analysis is right, then the first answer to this new threat to Dutch society must be a purely pragmatic one: strengthen the police and intelligence efforts to capture the extremists. Here, it is vital that all Dutch citizens, Muslims and non-Muslims, believe that the Dutch government represents them and the Dutch police and intelligence services protect them. Only then will it be harder for extremists to recruit youngsters and exploit feelings of alienation.

Integration was not the problem in this case, but it is part of the solution. We do need a further strengthening of our effort to integrate ethnic minorities into our society, to make them part of the "we" that unites to fight the "them" who threaten our core values.

But integration is not only important in winning that fight against terrorism. If we do not manage diversity intelligently, then slowly, imperceptibly, support for a good society with a high degree of welfare-sharing and political participation will be replaced with something more fragmented and introverted (as David Goodhart argued in Prospect, February 2004).

The Dutch sociologist Abram de Swaan argues that the welfare state is based not on altruism, but on enlightened self-interest: we all run the same risks so we might as well collectively insure ourselves against those risks. We do not like to live in neighbourhoods with a high chance of running into beggars and homeless people all the time. We do not want to live in houses that may be broken into by bored youngsters - so let us educate them and improve their life chances.

Solidarity is not paid for by the rich but by the middle class, by fairly ordinary people. They continue to pay because they believe that at some point they may become the ones who need it. A more diverse society makes it harder to sustain support for this type of solidarity. Some say this is because we have lost a common culture: "Why should I make an effort for people I don't know, don't understand or who don't do things the way I would?"

Yes, it is harder to organise solidarity in the absence of a common culture, but it is harder still in the absence of a common interest. If welfare state solidarity stems from a perceived common interest because we all run the same risks, then the key question becomes: do we still all run the same risks in life?

Mark Elchardus, the Belgian sociologist, says no. He points to the fact that those with a low level of education run a higher risk of becoming unemployed, becoming sick or being in other ways marginalised. And if those on either side of the dividing line between well educated and poorly educated, employed and unemployed, healthy and sick, without a criminal record and with a criminal record, overlap too often with ethnic divisions between white and black, western origin or non-western origin, then the danger is that the better off will think of collective solidarity not as enlightened self-interest, but as an arrangement by which "we" pay for "them."

This is not only a problem for the welfare state, but also for the rule of law. For example, we support the presumption of innocence in a court case partly because we ourselves could end up in court unfairly accused. If, however, in a more diverse society, the risk of being suspected of a crime is much higher for citizens of non-western origin than for citizens of western origin, then sooner or later the latter may agree to more repressive policies because they believe it will affect the former and not themselves.

This is exactly what may now be happening in the Netherlands. Discussions focus on the use of anonymous information from the intelligence services in court, and on whether it should be made possible to prosecute extremists for what they think or believe rather than for what they do or tell others to do. These measures are new to the Netherlands but are very popular, because most people believe they will only affect "others."

The integration debate is different in all European countries, although there is also some overlap. Migrants in Britain tend to be better integrated - a common language is one reason, and the more deregulated labour market, which makes it easier to get low-paying jobs, may be another.

Most recent migrants into the Netherlands, Muslim and non-Muslim, did not speak the language when they arrived. This was not the case for migrants from our former colonies, but they were quickly outnumbered by asylum-seekers and "guest workers," mainly from Turkey and Morocco. Many of these migrants still do not speak Dutch and the extent to which their children do varies. Moreover, studies have shown that, unlike in Britain, the net economic benefits of migration to Dutch society over the last 40 years have been negative. Disproportionate numbers of migrants are unemployed and on social security. "Marriage migration" of poorly educated young women, often illiterate, has reinforced this effect.

This means that diversity in the Netherlands too often means that members of migrant families have a far higher chance of being poorly educated, unemployed, sick or in possession of a criminal record. Failing integration is therefore not just a problem in itself but is also a direct threat to maintaining solidarity and the rule of law in the Dutch welfare state. How should we respond to this challenge?

The first challenge to address is the absence of common cultural values that may endanger the willingness of the middle classes to pay for solidarity. Those who favour more economic migration into western societies, and even those who simply consider it inevitable, will only be politically credible if they are also credible on the core contract our society requires all citizens to accept: civil liberties, including freedom of expression; the equal treatment of men and women, heterosexuals and homosexuals; the separation of church and state; the principle of democratic government and the rule of law.

These core principles are not fixed for all time, but we will only be believable defenders of migration if we are believable defenders of this contract.

The second challenge to address is the absence of a common interest. If we all run roughly the same risks in life, it will be much easier to find support for collective sharing arrangements. That requires working towards the classic progressive goal of emancipating and developing those who lag behind. We are, of course, aiming at a society where, whether you are black or white, Christian or Muslim, everyone is an equal citizen with a decent chance in life. Only then will collective arrangements be seen as arrangements that are paid for by all of us and benefit all of us, regardless of origin. And only then will the rule of law be seen as an arrangement that protects all of us, regardless of origin.

The third challenge is to realise how difficult this is going to be. Shouting out that migration is inevitable and that in ten, 20 or 30 years' time we will need migrant workers does not make the task any easier. Integration requires an effort from all of us: those whose families have lived here for centuries, those who have lived here for a generation or two and those who have just arrived. It requires an effort from employers, schools, politicians, spiritual leaders, journalists, building companies and many more. Every society has limits to its capacity to absorb newcomers. Successful integration therefore requires a restrictive migration policy, because our capacity to integrate and emancipate is not limitless.

Progressive politicians could leave this challenge to others. We could leave the dilemmas unacknowledged. Those of us on the centre-left in the Netherlands know where that got us: look at the historic defeat of the left in the 2002 elections, look at the way politicians from the right reacted, look at the hardening of the debate on migration that followed, look at how little is left of the tolerance and liberty that Dutch society was once famous for.

Leaving this debate to the conservatives may feel comfortable because we will not have to disappoint anybody and it will enable us to continue promising everything to everybody: solidarity and diversity; the rule of law and multiculturalism; and a relaxed migration policy. But let's not fool ourselves. This will not help those who count on us. It won't help the newcomers to our society who are promised a future that we cannot provide. And it won't help the long-term citizens who either fool themselves that diversity causes no problems at all or who will suffer from the slow erosion of collective arrangements. That is not what I want. This debate cannot be ignored by the progressive side of politics. It is our debate too.
source: PROSPECT
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Jan, 2005 09:49 am
Quote:
Van Gogh festival film withdrawn

Murdered director Theo van Gogh's controversial film Submission has been pulled from the Rotterdam Film Festival because of security fears.

It was one of three of his works to be shown as part of a freedom of expression event in tribute to the late film-maker's life.

The film is critical of the treatment of women under Islam. Its TV screening is thought to have led to his murder.

The 10-day Dutch festival begins on Wednesday.

Submission was made with liberal Somali-Dutch politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali and was due to be shown on 30 January.

Van Gogh was shot and stabbed to death in November 2004 several months after receiving death threats following Submission's first broadcast on Dutch television.

Two of Van Gogh's other films will be shown as planned, including the theatrical world premiere of his last feature 06/05.

New talent

Festival director Sandra den Hamer said: "The festival reflects what happens around us and within cinema itself."

The festival opens with the French film The 10th District Court, Moments of Trials made by Raymond Depardon.

The event sees 14 films competing to win three Top Tiger Awards which aim to introduce promising new talent.

New sections added to this year's festival include Cinema of the Future and Cinema of the World, with special focus on Russian and south-east Asian productions.

There is also an Iraqi-German offering entitled Underexposure, which looks at life in Iraq after Saddam Hussein.

Source
0 Replies
 
Sidderaal00
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 10:40 am
I'm from the Netherlands, and it's kinda fucked up to deal with 1 million bad-integrated backward-culture muslims on a population on 16 million people. In 1990 we had 500.000 muslims, now 15 years later it's 1.000.000 muslims. And that ain't the illegal muslims include. Like 80% of the prisons-population isn't born in the Netherlands itself.
I think the US will do good to keep so many as muslims out of it's borders before they taking over your own country.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 03:51 pm
You reap what you sow.
0 Replies
 
Sidderaal00
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 06:46 pm
au1929 wrote:
You reap what you sow.


The people must reap what stupid politicians sow.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 06:59 pm
Don't blame the politicians blame those who vote for them.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2005 08:54 pm
I say again, it seems obvious enough to me that western countries will ultimately have two choices with respect to islam: either ban it, or bring it under SEVERE controls, which would minimally include eliminating all wahhabi connections and all Saudi influence.

Anything less than that and I think you're looking at civil wars down the road.
0 Replies
 
Sidderaal00
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 04:45 am
au1929 wrote:
Don't blame the politicians blame those who vote for them.


If the people don't know the consequentes of politician's choices they aren't stupid. But if the politician's don't know the consequentes of their choices they are stupid. That is a big shame.
0 Replies
 
Sidderaal00
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 04:47 am
gungasnake wrote:
I say again, it seems obvious enough to me that western countries will ultimately have two choices with respect to islam: either ban it, or bring it under SEVERE controls, which would minimally include eliminating all wahhabi connections and all Saudi influence.

Anything less than that and I think you're looking at civil wars down the road.


Yeah, we're worrying about civil wars here between muslims/non-western immigrants and non-muslims/western/white people in the next 20 years.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 06:19 am
Sidderaal00 wrote:


Yeah, we're worrying about civil wars here between muslims/non-western immigrants and non-muslims/western/white people in the next 20 years.



Dumb question here.....

Has anybody in Holland noticed a bit of an incongruity or something like that, between what's going on with islam in Holland, and the idea of that "international criminal tribunal" in the Hague trying Slobodan Milosevic for trying to get some sort of a handle on islammic terrorists in Kosovo?
0 Replies
 
Sidderaal00
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 06:27 am
gungasnake wrote:
Sidderaal00 wrote:


Yeah, we're worrying about civil wars here between muslims/non-western immigrants and non-muslims/western/white people in the next 20 years.



Dumb question here.....

Has anybody in Holland noticed a bit of an incongruity or something like that, between what's going on with islam in Holland, and the idea of that "international criminal tribunal" in the Hague trying Slobodan Milosevic for trying to get some sort of a handle on islammic terrorists in Kosovo?


No, we don't see a connection between what happened in Kosovo and in Holland now. Maybe a few people.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 06:54 am
Sidderaal00 wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Sidderaal00 wrote:


Yeah, we're worrying about civil wars here between muslims/non-western immigrants and non-muslims/western/white people in the next 20 years.



Dumb question here.....

Has anybody in Holland noticed a bit of an incongruity or something like that, between what's going on with islam in Holland, and the idea of that "international criminal tribunal" in the Hague trying Slobodan Milosevic for trying to get some sort of a handle on islammic terrorists in Kosovo?


No, we don't see a connection between what happened in Kosovo and in Holland now. Maybe a few people.


Best I can tell from reading, the recent problems in Kosovo started with Milosevic de-autonomizing the region in 89, and nobody should blame him for it. There were a couple dozen ethnic groups in Kosovo, and the Albanians were brutalizing all the others and trying to drive them all out, and the place legally belongs to Serbia.

Some of the history of the place:

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm.html

Again, near as I can tell from reading, if there's such a thing as an Albanian NON-terrorist, he'd be hard to find.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 06:57 am
Quote:

Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats


Just one more dumb question here....

Does the idea of having to hide in fear for their lives in their own country for fear of immigrants who don't know how to act bother anybody in Holland?
0 Replies
 
Sidderaal00
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 08:27 am
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:

Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats


Just one more dumb question here....


You like to act as a smart-ass Razz
0 Replies
 
Sidderaal00
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 08:30 am
PDiddie wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
[Just one more dumb question here....


"The Muslims caused the deficit."


US tradedeficit you mean? That could be true, because US mostly import oil from muslim-nations. :wink:
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 09:02 am
Sidderaal00 wrote:
US tradedeficit you mean? That could be true, because US mostly import oil from muslim-nations. :wink:


I have for the most part abandoned trying to untangle the pretzel logic of the gungasnakes inhabiting Bizarro World, Sid. I think the moron calling C-SPAN this morning was referring to the US budget deficit, not the trade deficit.

Of course, maybe a conservative expert will show up and 'clarify' it for us...
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 12:22 pm
Sidderaal00 wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:

Anti-Muslim Dutch politicians in hiding after death threats


Just one more dumb question here....


You like to act as a smart-ass Razz



"Smart ass"?? Me???

I mean, I didn't even use the H word. A real smart ass might have mentioned the fact that a hell of a lot of people are starting to view the Dutch as HYPOCRITES for burning down 20 some mosques and trying to pass anti-muslim-integration laws while they're trying Slobodan Milosevic at the Hague for doing the same sort of thing for the same sort of reasons.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 12:34 pm
I dont think the Dutch who were setting fire to mosques were the same as those prosecuting Milosevic ...

(Actually, its an international court, the prosecutor, judge etc are from all over the world, no great number of Dutch among them).

Our justice system will bring those who set fire to mosques to court. The international justice system will bring those who order mosques to be burnt down systematically to court, if need be. No contradiction there.
0 Replies
 
Sidderaal00
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 01:28 pm
nimh wrote:
I dont think the Dutch who were setting fire to mosques were the same as those prosecuting Milosevic ...

(Actually, its an international court, the prosecutor, judge etc are from all over the world, no great number of Dutch among them).

Our justice system will bring those who set fire to mosques to court. The international justice system will bring those who order mosques to be burnt down systematically to court, if need be. No contradiction there.


Yeah, the Internationale Court is like an island in the Netherlands like an airport. But yes, it's kinda hypocrite.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2005 03:22 pm
Report Cites 'Hate' Writings in U.S. Mosques



Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi Sect Literature 'Widely' Available, Freedom House Says

By John Mintz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, February 6, 2005; Page A18



The libraries of a number of American mosques feature Arabic-language writings published by the Saudi government or top clerics in the desert kingdom that virulently denounce Muslims from different traditions as well as Christians and Jews, and say devout Muslims should think of America as enemy territory, a new study said.

Freedom House, a conservative-leaning human rights organization based in New York, said in its report released last week that the books and publications in question say, among other things, that Muslims who employ a non-Muslim maid or cook "have to hate her for Allah's sake."
The publications espouse the hard-line fundamentalist views of the Wahhabi sect in Saudi Arabia.

The Wahhabi publications "remain widely available in America, in some cases dominate mosque library shelves, and continue to be used to educate American Muslims," said the report by Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom. Freedom House was founded by Eleanor Roosevelt in 1941, and its current chairman is former CIA director R. James Woolsey.

The 57 publications discussed in the report "state it is a religious obligation to hate Christians and Jews, and warn against imitating, befriending or helping such 'infidels' in any way," the study said. "They instill contempt for America" as well as "a Nazi-like hatred for Jews."

Asked about the study -- which said the publications were found in mosques in Washington, D.C.; Virginia; New Jersey; New York; Illinois; Texas and California -- Islamic organizations distanced themselves from the vitriolic Wahhabi writings, and said most American Muslims do not subscribe to such views.

"If there's any kind of hate-filled rhetoric in a mosque in America, it should be removed," said Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council of American-Islamic Relations, a civil rights group. "These excerpts don't reflect the reality of the American Muslim community," he said, adding that the vast majority of U.S. Muslims do not speak Arabic.

A spokesman for the Saudi Embassy here, who requested anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity, said some of the publications date back to the 1960s, and that some were Saudi fatwas, or religious edicts, that have been reversed since then.

The Saudi government has said for more than a year that it is removing offensive material from its schools, and that it is discouraging its Ministry of Islamic Affairs from continuing its work publicly disseminating often radical and incendiary anti-Western publications.

Islamic experts point out that Saudi Arabia and its leading government clerics, who embrace Wahhabism, were for many decades the main source of funds, training and printed materials for the growing American Muslim community. Some U.S. mosques agree with the unforgiving Saudi brand of Islam, but even those that do not often have textbooks or other publications reflecting the Saudis' Wahhabi line, they said.

Wahhabism took root in the Arabian desert in the 1740s, promoted by Mohammed ibn Abd Wahhab, who sought to purge what he saw as corrupting influences in Islam and return it to its original orthodoxy. It found a powerful ally in the House of Saud, which has ruled the Arabian peninsula for centuries.

In recent years, some Wahhabi imams became radical opponents of the royal family and promulgated the jihadist views of Osama bin Laden.

"Wahhabis invariably present Jews as falling permanently under God's curse, and often less than human," the report said. "Even apart from the issue of Israel and the Palestinians or any Arab-Israeli conflict, Wahhabi hatred for Jews as Jews is primordial."

A Saudi government publication found at the Islamic Center on Massachusetts Avenue NW said Jews were extremely wily in promoting capitalism and communism as part of a strategy of world domination. The Jews "lured women to work in the factories," it said, and then, by getting them to wear makeup and revealing clothes, the Jews helped to "corrupt young men."

A fatwa issued by the Saudi government in 2000, and found in the Islamic Center of San Diego, said Muslims must maintain a "wall of resentment" against non-Muslims, who are all "enemies to Allah, his Prophet and believers."

A Saudi government-financed publication found at the al-Farouq Mosque in Houston said that celebrating birthdays and the "false holidays" of Americans is "forbidden and lewd."

Another Saudi pamphlet, called "Religious Edicts for the Immigrant Muslim" -- and found at the All Dulles Area Muslim Society (or ADAMS Center) in Sterling -- said "it is forbidden for a Muslim to become a citizen of a country (such as the United States) governed by infidels."

But a leader of the ADAMS Center said that even if such a publication was found on its shelves, the mosque itself rejects such views. Mukit Hossain, a member of the mosque's board of trustees, said that despite the publication that Freedom House said it found there, the mosque fervently embraces citizenship, and in the last two years it enrolled 5,000 Muslims to vote.

"I emphatically say," Hossain added, that Wahhabism "is not part of Islam."
0 Replies
 
 

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