Marriage and Monogamy

Yes to question 1.

No to question 2.

Monogamy is natural, even for men, when you are inlove.

Marriage is not mandatory in order to live a married life.

Sex should happen when both parties want it.

Extra conjugal sex is a clear sign of disconnect. Marriage is about wanting to be connected. If that is gone be fair n leave.

It is only fear and insecurity that puts monogamy in marriage. It is a terrible thing to base a partnership on.

Marriage is a partnership, nothing more (or less). Sex is nice but incidental to marriage except for the resulting children where the partnership aspect is again the important factor.

If your primary reason for marriage was to obtain the exclusive 'rights' to sex with someone, you're just fucked, in more ways than one.

1. There are many successful married couples that agree on open marriages.

2. Our culture has a traditional expectation of monogamy (that has been transmitted through the Christian religion). There are many cultures where monogamy is not expected in marriage. The idea that marriage should be strictly monogamous is part of Western Christian culture (which is why we all think it is natural). But it is far from Universal.

3. It is very clear that humans are not naturally monogamous. Even in our culture where monogamy is traditionally expected (sometimes with severe consequences for breaking it), "cheating" is a pretty common occurence.

Monogamy is not a natural part of human behavior. This is why we need so much social control to try to enforce it.

4. There are very few animal species that are strictly monogamous. Even animals related to us that have romantic pairings allow for sex on the side. There is simply no evolutionary benefit to these pairings.

5. The idea that sex is connected to marriage is ridiculously obsolete. There are lots of single people running around having sex (very few single people over the age of 17 are celibate).

A good marriage is defined only by the two people involved. If they want to be monogamous... then good for them. If they don't, that is fine too. The time when religion dictates what a good marriage means is over.

Good sex is defined only by the two people involved. There is no connection between good sex and good marriage. (Although, strangely enough there seems to be a connection between bad sex and marriage, but that is a topic for another thread.)

Except for the tying of monogamy exclusively to religion, I agree with you.

People can fearful, jealous and insecure about their relationships without religion being involved.

Monogamy is not the default state UNLESS you are in love. Gladly I am in love with my wife since I met her 13 years ago. So what you said is half true.

Not true. I know people who are in love with a partner with whom they have an open relationship. The state of being "in love" differs from culture to culture. Polygamist cultures would certainly see things differently than you see them.

There is a modern Western view of being "in love" that is not at all universal to human experience.

Being "in love" may imply monogamy to you. That doesn't mean that this definition applies to everyone else, and it certainly doesn't apply across cultures.

While you point out the subjectivity of what "love" can connote in a relationship, I believe one should first admit that "love" itself is purely subjective, and therefore, until it is codified (like the 1950's rock and roll song, "The Ten Commandments of Love") one is talking a different lexicon with even those people in one's own demographic.

Naw, being 'in love' isn't subjective. If he's talking about what I think he is, it isn't even love. It's infatuation, which can be intoxicating and fun. In 'objective' medical studies using FMRI, being 'in love' is indistinguishable from being high on cocaine.

While "infatuation" is still alive and kicking, 13 years of solid relation require a lot more. We share common values, beliefs, and interests.
My monogamy with my wife is absolutely natural and spontaneous. It has nothing to do with any sort of cultural bias. I just don't feel the need to look to anyone else. She is funny, creative, super smart and complements me as I am a bit more "metaphysical" n out of this world.
She says I am grumpy but sweet and admires my commitment to Logic, Knowledge, and Science. She fears I may get a brain meltdown due to my excessive consume of information. We found each other and "click" automatically. That click is not going anywhere be it in good or bad times. For better n for worse we are each other's rock.

The false premise in this thread, in my opinion, is that many of us assume we humans all have an equal capacity of be introspective. Now I will say, "Naw."

Any relationship that two (or more) are happy with is OK by me. You & your wife may well be a great match. But 13 (or any other number) of years isn't the evidence of that.

Not that your relationship is, but my infatuation with one particular woman lasted 23 years and my belief in 'that feeling' as being 'in love' lasted 50 years.

I feel so much better now that I'm over it though :-)

Fil may I ask you? Why you think the qualities in your relationship you point out here, has anything to do with sexual urge? Or you don't ever feel sexual attracted to other people; or you just discipline yourself out of respect for your partner?

I don't feel sexually attracted by other women atm at least not consciously.
I still have abstract considerations about aesthetics but don't feel actual attraction for other women. I don't know why this is so hard to believe maybe I am defective.

I don't know any better judge then time. Not saying time is the perfect judge either.
Speaking about perfection if people ask that much of their partner to stay with them then they don't love them.
I am sorry that you lost a relation that lasted for 50 years.

You're certainly right about the foolishness of expecting perfection from anyone but that is definitely not part of what I meant by being infatuated. Nor does it have much to do with simple sexual attraction.
People in the state I'm talking about are more likely to overlook any flaw, accept any cruelty and forgive any injustice from the one they have put on a pedestal.

As bad as it is, 'the pedestal' is celebrated by society in innumerable songs, books, movies, even wedding vows. "I only have eyes for you", "You are my everything", "Loving this one and forsaking all others", etc. Society also embraces the other side of it too. They thought it was perfectly normal for the Beatles to sing - "I'd rather see you dead little girl than to be with another man". Sorry for the age of these examples, I don't listen to pop songs much anymore but I doubt they've changed.

There are two ways to look at what you said about not really being attracted to other women. The negative way is when people are obsessed or infatuated with someone. The positive way is when they have an appreciation for physical and emotional intimacy combined. Hopefully that is what you and your wife have.

Not sure why I developed that appreciation early on but I did. Even way back when I subscribed to Playboy, the centerfolds had no sexual appeal to me unless I fantasized a full relationship with the women in the pictures. That still did not keep me from getting infatuated with the real women I met. I fantasized that emotional intimacy with them too, even when it wasn't there. I did that for 50 years.

Don't be sorry that's over with; I'm so much happier now that I am open to real relationships without society's unrealistic ideals.

You have made a point of describing why vulgar expressions of Love fail so often.
You have not made a point about my relation.

I am not perfect nor is my wife but we match!
You do get why and how an engine works right?
Either parts fit with each other and the thing works or they don't.
You don't need metaphysics to explain love. There is no mystery to it. We agree on that and all the vulgar tremendous huge fantastic expectations ppl have. Trump sells for a reason, mediocrity is normal...
Case is simple, sometimes things fit really well, in others occasions they don't.

While none of us is great, huge, tremendous, fantastic, our relation naturally is.
WE ARE PROPORTIONAL!

a very good marriage is defined by trust, monogamy is fine if that is what the two people want together,
a good open marriage is still based on trust, meaning if they want extra sex and they are open with each other that also is fine, its trust and honesty that matter most