Democrats and the Draft

Just stumbled upon this thread and haven't read the comments.
However, yes frank he is a moron and that does not say much for the electorate should he get elected.
That Said I must comment on the statement in the article

Quote:

Polls show that military families will vote for Bush over Kerry by ratios of up to 3 to 1. Among other things, they know who wants a competent professional fighting force and who would allow it to degrade to the point that a draft became necessary.

I wonder if that includes the poorly trained and equipped National Guard and Reserve outfits called up and sent to Iraq.
As for meeting our enlistment and reenlistment goals. That remains to be seen. If that were so why is the stop lose in effect? And why the call-up of members or the ready reserve? I take with a grain of salt anything that issues from this administration in light of a less than truthful history.

Regarding national service, military left to the individual. A year or two in the service of the nation that nurtured us sounds good to me. I have three grandsons, if my wife saw this I would probably sleeping on the couch tonight.

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Based upon Bush's plan to impose he view of right and wrong and democracy upon the world it is more likely that a draft will be reinstated if he is reelected. After all he can't keep extending enlistment's and sending the same troops out to die for his grandiose plans indefinitely.

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Sorry, my lefty friends, but you need to get beyond these facts:

Transcript:

Quote:

KERRY: That's why, in my plan, I add two active duty divisions to the United States Army, not for Iraq, but for our general demands across the globe. I also intend to double the number of special forces so that we can do the job we need to do with respect fighting the terrorists around the world. And if we do that, then we have the ability to be able to respond more rapidly.

But I'll tell you this, as president, if it took American forces to some degree to coalesce the African Union, I'd be prepared to do it because we could never allow another Rwanda.

It's the moral responsibility for us and the world.

As I stated before. this should send chills up any liberal, anti-war Democratic partisan's spine. Yet, all of you remain silent, simply because they want a liberal in the White House.

What does Kerry mean when he says he will add two Divisions to the Army? He will add approximately 13,000 to 18,000 soldiers.

Right now we have six 'heavy divisions' and four 'light divisions' for a total of 10 Divisions.

By adding two Divisions, Kerry will be increasing the size of the military by approximately 20%.

So here it is, libs. Kerry says he will send troops to Africa or wherever he feels there is a "moral responsibility" to do so.

He is going to increase the size of the army by 20%.

But then again, if all of you 'progressives' have learned that Kerry seldom says what he believes, and rarely sticks to his word, I guess there is no reason to worry.....

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The only thing to "worry" about in this election, LV, is that Bush could accidentally get re-elected...and continue down this path to ruin.

He is the worst president I've ever lived under...and his adminsitration is the most incompetent.

Really!

You seem like an intelligent person.

Get past all that conservative ideology.

Bush and company must go!

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Not sure if I've mentioned this before...and I'm sure you will see why I do here, because it is germane to this discussion...

...but George Bush is a goddam moron...and the adminsitration he has assembled is probably the most incompetent in American history.

They have done more damage to America...and our interests during the last four years than the terrorists they are supposedly fighting could do in a couple of decades.

Bush is absolutely clueless...and the people around him are pulled from the pages of "The Emperor has no clothes!"

By the way...did I mention that George Bush is a goddam moron?

Yes, but tell us how you really feel about Bush. Smile

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Well, LV, the majority of my family lives in California. As a result, I get more than my fair share of information about "local" politics there...and although my brother and his family are conservatives (my sister and her family are not...but like me, are not liberals either)...they seem to both be of the opinion that the thing most damaging to California...is the Initiative and Referendum thingy....which allows some hairbrained ideas to handcuff the governing procedure.

I'm not going to go deeply into this...as a Californian...you know where Prop 13, for instance, has lead.

And as I understand it, the notion for I & R...pretty much arose and was fostered by the conservative element of California.

In any case...I am not especially interested in extreme liberal or extreme conservative leadership....and I definitely think Kerry will furnish more moderate, middle-of-the-road leadership than Bush...who apparently interpreted his "win" in the last election as a mandate to disavow all his promises to govern from the center.

The moron, as I refer to him, managed to throw out most of the conservative bents I tolerate and to impose most of the conseravtive bents I abhor...during his brief "reign."

I fully expect the American public to be intelligent and caring enough to throw this bum out tomorrow.

By the way...California is one of the most beautiful places on the face of the planet. I envy you living there. Unfortunately, Nancy's family all live here...and the notion of a move to that area seems very remote at the moment. BUT IT IS GORGEOUS.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

....and I definitely think Kerry will furnish more moderate, middle-of-the-road leadership than Bush....

What in the wide, wide world of sports (a favorite movie quote) makes you think Kerry will provide more moderate, middle of the road leadership then Bush?

As conservative as Bush is, what makes you think Kerry won't be at least as liberal?

I happen to think Kerry will feel he has a mandate to be liberal (even though he campaigned as a moderate), which will cause him to move this country far more to the left then Bush moved it to the right.

If he is elected, I hope I'm wrong. But the whole Democratic party has moved far to the left (see Nancy Pelosi), and there is no reason to think Kerry won't govern that way.

And like I've said, I think a far left regime is far more dangerous to our country then Bush, based on what I have seen them do to California.

Just curious, in which part of the state does your family live?

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A Lone Voice wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

....and I definitely think Kerry will furnish more moderate, middle-of-the-road leadership than Bush....

What in the wide, wide world of sports (a favorite movie quote) makes you think Kerry will provide more moderate, middle of the road leadership then Bush?

Because what passes for "liberal" these days...is little more than the middle of the road slightly to the left of the center line.

It is the right that has moved to the extreme...not the left, LV.

Quote:

As conservative as Bush is, what makes you think Kerry won't be at least as liberal?

Bush is not a conservative. He is a rabid, right wing moron...who has managed to trashcan damn near every conservative ideal that I find has any appeal at all...and has, at the same time, brought to the fore all the crap I despise. That is why he has earned the anger of so many true conservatives.

Kerry...and any other "liberal" has already been forced to the center.

Just what do you suppose Kerry is going to do that is so damn liberal?

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I happen to think Kerry will feel he has a mandate to be liberal (even though he campaigned as a moderate), which will cause him to move this country far more to the left then Bush moved it to the right.

Moving this country back toward the left from where Bush has taken it will be the most wonderful thing that has ever happened to it.

In the meantime, I am confounded as to what you suspect is so bad about getting us away from this rightward lurch.

Quote:

If he is elected, I hope I'm wrong. But the whole Democratic party has moved far to the left (see Nancy Pelosi), and there is no reason to think Kerry won't govern that way.

WHAT ARE YOU THINKING OF, LV?

How can you possibly think that?

The liberals of 40 years ago would be aghast at the concessions today's liberals are making and have made!

The so-called left...is truly the center. The "LEFT" has no chance at all!

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And like I've said, I think a far left regime is far more dangerous to our country then Bush, based on what I have seen them do to California.

Well...I notice that you simply did not even attempt to deal with my original response to this issue. Try doing so.

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Just curious, in which part of the state does your family live?

Email me at [email protected].

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Todays Left is not the center, as you would claim Frank. The welfare state, the fail to succeed get a paycheck, have a baby get a paycheck policy that we have today is far from conservative. The strong central government that we have is antithetical to Conservatism. What Kerry proposes is even further down the tube. I can undestand how conservatives might dislike Bush, he is no true conservative, but I cannot undestand how any conservative would favor Kerry over Bush. Kerry has zero conservative ideals. He is Liberalism embodied.

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Well...as an iconoclast who has lots of issues with the extreme right AND the extreme left...

...it is my opinion that erring on the side of the left makes one hell of a lot more sense than erring on the side of the right.

And it is also my opinion that the right has such fantasies about its worth...that they consider anything to their left to be trash.

The present day American liberal faction is definitely MUCH MUCH closer to the center of American sensibilities than present day American conservatism.

American conservatism has always been screwed-up...wrong on every major issue this country has ever faced. And it is even more wrong now.

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Don't believe me Frank? Read the words of Michael Moore:

Quote:

To My Friends on the Left:

Okay, Kerry isn't everything you wished he would be. You're right. He's not you! Or me. But we're not on the ballot - Kerry is. Yes, Kerry was wrong to vote for authorization for war in Iraq but he was in step with 70% of the American public who was being lied to by Bush & Co. And once everyone learned the truth, the majority turned against the war. Kerry has had only one position on the war - he believed his president.

President Kerry had better bring the troops home right away. My prediction: Kerry's roots are anti-war. He has seen the horrors of war and because of that he will avoid war unless it is absolutely necessary. Ask most vets. But don't ask someone whose only horror was when he arrived too late for a kegger in Alabama.

There's a reason Bush calls Kerry the Number One Liberal in the Senate - THAT'S BECAUSE HE IS THE NUMBER ONE LIBERAL IN THE SENATE! What more do you want? My friends, this is about as good as it gets when voting for the Democrat. We don't have the #29 Liberal running or the #14 Liberal or even the #2 Liberal - we got #1! When has that ever happened?

Those of us who may be to the left of the #1 liberal Democrat should remember that this year conservative Democrats have had to make a far greater shift in their position to back Kerry than we have. We're the ones always being asked to make the huge compromises and to always vote holding our noses. No nose holding this time. This #1 liberal is not the tweedledee to Bush's tweedledum.

Link: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-11-01

What else will it take, Frank?

Quote:

Well, LV, the majority of my family lives in California. As a result, I get more than my fair share of information about "local" politics there...and although my brother and his family are conservatives (my sister and her family are not...but like me, are not liberals either)...they seem to both be of the opinion that the thing most damaging to California...is the Initiative and Referendum thingy....which allows some hairbrained ideas to handcuff the governing procedure.

Yeah, that does allow some wild issues on the ballot. It is usually used by whichever party is out of power, and has been around since the early 1900's.

Quote:

In any case...I am not especially interested in extreme liberal or extreme conservative leadership....and I definitely think Kerry will furnish more moderate, middle-of-the-road leadership than Bush...who apparently interpreted his "win" in the last election as a mandate to disavow all his promises to govern from the center.

Why in the world would you think this? Michael Moore calls Kerry the most liberal member of the Senate.

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I'm not going to go deeply into this...as a Californian...you know where Prop 13, for instance, has lead.

Prop 13 kept many eldery people from losing their homes, Frank. It was a good thing for the state, as it quit allowing cities and school districts to raise local taxes by double digit numbers every year.

And the Dems have kept the schools from recovering. Cities recovered nicely by being able to use sales tax to fund operations (until the state started taking it away). Schools are now forced to wallow in a state bureaucracy that has been spun out of control by liberals.

Quote:

By the way...California is one of the most beautiful places on the face of the planet. I envy you living there. Unfortunately, Nancy's family all live here...and the notion of a move to that area seems very remote at the moment. BUT IT IS GORGEOUS.

That, it is. I am about 2 hours from a beach, and two hours away from Yosemite. I have snow skied and surfed on the same day. Although liberal environmists, with the help of Democratic legislators, have attacked ski resorts and tried to force some to wither away. And of course, liberal elites who have beach houses have tried to keep bums like me away from the beach near their homes.

It never ends in California, Frank.

Anyway, tell me your thoughts on Michael Moore's statements....

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A Lone Voice wrote:

Don't believe me Frank? Read the words of Michael Moore:

Quote:
To My Friends on the Left:

Okay, Kerry isn't everything you wished he would be. You're right. He's not you! Or me. But we're not on the ballot - Kerry is. Yes, Kerry was wrong to vote for authorization for war in Iraq but he was in step with 70% of the American public who was being lied to by Bush & Co. And once everyone learned the truth, the majority turned against the war. Kerry has had only one position on the war - he believed his president.

President Kerry had better bring the troops home right away. My prediction: Kerry's roots are anti-war. He has seen the horrors of war and because of that he will avoid war unless it is absolutely necessary. Ask most vets. But don't ask someone whose only horror was when he arrived too late for a kegger in Alabama.

There's a reason Bush calls Kerry the Number One Liberal in the Senate - THAT'S BECAUSE HE IS THE NUMBER ONE LIBERAL IN THE SENATE! What more do you want? My friends, this is about as good as it gets when voting for the Democrat. We don't have the #29 Liberal running or the #14 Liberal or even the #2 Liberal - we got #1! When has that ever happened?

Those of us who may be to the left of the #1 liberal Democrat should remember that this year conservative Democrats have had to make a far greater shift in their position to back Kerry than we have. We're the ones always being asked to make the huge compromises and to always vote holding our noses. No nose holding this time. This #1 liberal is not the tweedledee to Bush's tweedledum.

Link: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-11-01

Ahhh...so you want me to take the word of Michael Moore?????

C'mon, LV!

In any case, this use of labels is as absurd when the label is liberal as it is when the label is conservative.

Surely you would not want to be painted with the brush used on some of the nut cases on the extreme right, would you?

And, being the most liberal Senator....is, as Michael Moore clearly indicates...not synonymous with being extremely liberal. One can easily be the "most liberal" individual in a pack...and still not be very liberal. (Think: the most liberal Republican senator...or the most liberal Republican congressman!)

Quote:

What else will it take, Frank?

A lot more than you've offered so far...so I suggest we simply agree to disagree on this.

My position stands: I'd rather err on the side of a feeling of compassion for my fellow human being; on the side of empathy for the plight of the disadvantaged; on the side of using government to help protect the environment; on the side of so many things that the "liberals" champion...and that the conservatives oppose.

I may not agree with the liberal positions on these things completely...in fact, I can promise youl that I don't...

...but if I am going to err...it will be in that direction rather than the hooray-for-me; f**k-you mentality that so many conservatives espouse.

But as I said, we'd better agree to disagree on that.

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I do agree with that! Smile

Thanks as usual for the discussion...

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A Lone Voice wrote:

I do agree with that!

Thanks as usual for the discussion...

A pleasure for me too, LV.

Next visit to California...I'll let you know. Maybe we can meet up and party. (No talk about politics! ... just heavy partying!)

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Democrats and the Draft

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