if you prefer vs if you'd prefer

@perennialloner,

"marginally" more polite, marginally being the operative word.

Quote:

To me "if you'll prefer" seems most logical because the "that" in "I can do that for you" hasn't happened yet so it's something that the person in question will or will not prefer in the future as opposed to right now.

No, we are assuming that this person has a firm grasp of their choices, and knows their preferences. To suggest that they are undecided in their choices, that their decisions are willy nilly, unfocused is/would not be polite.

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@perennialloner,

"marginally" more polite, marginally being the operative word.

Quote:

To me "if you'll prefer" seems most logical because the "that" in "I can do that for you" hasn't happened yet so it's something that the person in question will or will not prefer in the future as opposed to right now.

No, we are assuming that this person has a firm grasp of their choices, and knows their preferences. To suggest that they are undecided in their choices, that their decisions are willy nilly, unfocused is/would not be polite.

Which, in all likelihood, is the reason it sounds unnatural - native speakers don't/wouldn't use a tentative future, they use the "tenses" that establish that the person knows.

1 Reply

@camlok,

OK. I could find you a reference that doesn't include "marginally." And I never claimed it to be more polite. Just seems the most logical to ME, probably because the future is after all unconfirmed.

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@perennialloner,

Quote:

Just seems the most logical to ME, probably because the future is after all unconfirmed.

What do you mean by the underlined, P?

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@perennialloner,

Quote:

OK. I could find you a reference that doesn't include "marginally."

Don't waste your time. Most of those types of sites are pretty much garbage.

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@camlok,

That was in response to your saying native speakers wouldn't use a tentative future. Im not trying to say that's how it should be. Im just trying to explain why it seems logical to me. I only speak for myself of course. Im sure fils reasons are different.

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@perennialloner,

I still don't understand why you are talking about a future.

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@perennialloner,

Yes. And the 2 assumes preference because it uses the present tense.
I agree it is confusing as looking counter intuitive but "if you prefer" almost assumes present tense information, thus contradicting the surreptitious "if" rhetorically. It's in a no man's land between a question and supposition/guestimate, or quasi-answer.
Of course, it can be argued the preference is present but the questioner does not know it. Problem being how can one use the present in a question to which a decision is yet to be made? The scenario is hypothetical and there is a billion variables to which even a knowledge from past example might not fit the specific case/context.

I am not a native speaker, I am terrible at English, I mean really bad, but I am trying to look at pure logic alone to judge the sentence. I set how it sounds for native speakers aside.

"If you'll prefer" is the perfect Logical form, once it asks for information regarding a decision to be made in a future moment no matter how imidiatly close to present.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

I am not a native speaker, I am terrible at English, I mean really bad, but I am trying to look at pure logic alone to judge the sentence. I set how it sounds for native speakers aside.

"If you'll prefer" is the perfect Logical form, once it asks for information regarding a decision to be made in a future moment no matter how imidiatly close to present.

You don't sound terrible at all, Fil, as regards the English language.

However, it is the height of folly to use logic to try to determine what is perfect Logical form for language.

We often use the Present Simple Tense to talk about future events.

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@camlok,

Agreed with your last two remarks. I was just having fun analyzing the possibilities.

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@camlok,

Im talking about a future because the "if you'll prefer" denotes one's preference at a future point in time.

Again, I'm not trying to say it's the correct form. Sorry if that still doesn't make sense. I'm not really sure how to make myself clearer.

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@perennialloner,

Quote:

Im talking about a future because the "if you'll prefer" denotes one's preference at a future point in time.

Again, I'm not trying to say it's the correct form. Sorry if that still doesn't make sense. I'm not really sure how to make myself clearer.

As does, "if you prefer" and "if you'd prefer". A speaker could choose either of those because the situation that speaker envisions is of the feeling that the person being asked has right at that moment. Or if the person being asked has not actually made such a decision, then it also applies to any point in the future when that preference is decided upon.

That the "if you'll prefer" is not a natural English choice, [not ever, I suspect] points this out.

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@camlok,

I understand that. To me, however, the "will" makes it seem more explicit.
But I don't disagree with you.

1 Reply

@perennialloner,

Then I am truly puzzled why we are discussing things that are not of the English language.

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@camlok,

probably because this is a thread made by an English language learner trying to better understand the English language.

I now understand why "if you prefer" and "if you'd prefer" are the preferred choices, but at the time I asked I didn't. You asked me to explain why I thought "if you'll prefer" was more logical. And I did my best to. I didn't explain because I was trying to justify it as correct or commonplace.

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@camlok,

Excuse me but say, "if you prefer ice cream" cannot be decided till the person is aware of the question. No matter if 99.9% of the time said person would indeed prefer ice cream to say hot chocolate. I cannot prefer what I know not will be asked of me!
I don't care if it is "Fraknglish", "if you'll prefer" it is logically correct!

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@perennialloner,

Fair enough, P. But at the point where the "if you'll prefer"isn't a part of English, that probably should have been a good place to stop.

Let's just say it was my bad.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

Excuse me but say, "if you prefer ice cream" cannot be decided till the person is aware of the question. No matter if 99.9% of the time said person would indeed prefer ice cream to say hot chocolate. I cannot prefer what I know not will be asked of me!
I don't care if it is "Fraknglish", "if you'll prefer" it is logically correct!

After rereading this thread, I think I see the problem Fil and Perennial are having.

"If you prefer" is not an indicator of future, it indicates what the speaker perceives to be the general condition/the habit/the now preference of the person being asked/addressed.

It is equivalent to, "If you like chocolate that is the kind of ice cream I will buy."

We don't use "If X will prefer ..." in this type of situation [it might be a possibility in another collocation] because "if X prefer[s]" covers the general/habitual/always situation and the "if X would prefer ..." covers the unknown future situation where the speaker does not wish to presume they know the other's preferences.

"If X will" simply isn't an option here in English.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Quote:

I agree it is confusing as looking counter intuitive but "if you prefer" almost assumes present tense information, thus contradicting the surreptitious "if" rhetorically. It's in a no man's land between a question and supposition/guestimate, or quasi-answer.
Of course, it can be argued the preference is present but the questioner does not know it. Problem being how can one use the present in a question to which a decision is yet to be made? The scenario is hypothetical and there is a billion variables to which even a knowledge from past example might not fit the specific case/context.

Again, the "present simple" is both present and future and actually past. It describes in English the general condition of a person. A person who says "I like pizza" conveys to English speakers that that is a condition of now, the past and the future. A general condition in English encompasses all, the past, the present and the future.

In English the present simple as in "I read books" is never taken as "I am now reading a book". It widely encompasses all time, though obviously it can be qualified.

"I didn't used to read books but now I do." = "It wasn't my habit/my general condition to read books in the past but now it is my habit/my general condition, and as things stand it will be so into the future".

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@perennialloner,

Quote:

To me "if you'll prefer" seems most logical because the "that" in "I can do that for you" hasn't happened yet so it's something that the person in question will or will not prefer in the future as opposed to right now.

I think that another problem you and Fil might be having with this is that you think 'will' is future tense and 'would' is past tense.

That is completely false. Though it is a common falsehood.

"if you would like to go with me, then jump into the car" isn't a description of some past event. It is an offer to 'you' to take part in a future event that has yet to occur. The 'if' only relates to you taking up an offer that has yet to happen, ie. getting in my car, because you are standing outside my car.

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if you prefer vs if you'd prefer

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