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Would Jesus condone abortion?

 
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:30 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
One other item in the "religion" argument on this issue has to be covered.

For the sake of this next commentary...let us SUPPOSE there is a God...and that the God is the god described in the Bible....and let us further SUPPOSE that the embryo or fetus is actually a complete human being.

How can the people who accept this god...absolutely rule out the possibility that the god wants the abortion performed?

If you are correct that the fetus is a complete human being...possessed of a soul that will be accepted into Heaven upon its death to spend eternity with the god...and if the soul of this human being when aborted does go to this "reward"....why are you so certain your god didn't want that to happen?

How do you know your god...forseeing great danger to the eternal soul of this "human" because it would be born into a situation where it would even begin its life as "unwanted"...decided to take the soul into Heaven rather than subjecting it to the rigors of "the test?"

Maybe the god needs company...because except for the souls who come to him pure from abortions...he gets no other company.

Maybe abortion is a part of your god's plans.

Your god certainly claims the souls of many babies and children...often by having military people drop bombs on them...so the idea of the god wanting untainted souls is not really all that far-fetched...is it?

Maybe each "baby" saved by Operation Rescue and its like...ultimately ends up in Hell. Maybe each move by the religious people who oppose abortion...is a move in direct contradiction to what the god wants. Maybe the abortions are doing the god's work...and the anti-abortions doing the work of Satan!



Ok your post is wrong from the first word to the last, but I have to admit that I got a good chuckle out of it.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 05:10 pm
cannistershot wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
One other item in the "religion" argument on this issue has to be covered.

For the sake of this next commentary...let us SUPPOSE there is a God...and that the God is the god described in the Bible....and let us further SUPPOSE that the embryo or fetus is actually a complete human being.

How can the people who accept this god...absolutely rule out the possibility that the god wants the abortion performed?

If you are correct that the fetus is a complete human being...possessed of a soul that will be accepted into Heaven upon its death to spend eternity with the god...and if the soul of this human being when aborted does go to this "reward"....why are you so certain your god didn't want that to happen?

How do you know your god...forseeing great danger to the eternal soul of this "human" because it would be born into a situation where it would even begin its life as "unwanted"...decided to take the soul into Heaven rather than subjecting it to the rigors of "the test?"

Maybe the god needs company...because except for the souls who come to him pure from abortions...he gets no other company.

Maybe abortion is a part of your god's plans.

Your god certainly claims the souls of many babies and children...often by having military people drop bombs on them...so the idea of the god wanting untainted souls is not really all that far-fetched...is it?

Maybe each "baby" saved by Operation Rescue and its like...ultimately ends up in Hell. Maybe each move by the religious people who oppose abortion...is a move in direct contradiction to what the god wants. Maybe the abortions are doing the god's work...and the anti-abortions doing the work of Satan!



Ok your post is wrong from the first word to the last, but I have to admit that I got a good chuckle out of it.


Yeah...that was cute.

But I notice you didn't have the balls to make any arguments against it.

Smart move on your part...because I would blow you out of the water on this issue.
0 Replies
 
Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 05:37 pm
Because I can see we are just having fun going back and forth (but will never get anywhere ...really), I will go again. Also, hw doesn't sound too exciting though it needs to get done.

Quote:
How can the people who accept this god...absolutely rule out the possibility that the god wants the abortion performed?


Maybe if we were in Heaven (and let's just say for argument sake there was sin), then He would decide what was best for the woman who is pregnant due to being raped or flat-out was unwanted/unplanned. There is just not scripture for us that say "we" should have the final authority to have at destroying the life of the unborn, just that we should protect it.

Going back to "Thou shall not kill."

At what point is the baby either non-living or non-human? The heart starts beating at about 3 weeks of gestation. Brainwaves start about 40 days after conception. Aren't people considered dead when their brain stops functioning? Why not consider them alive when their brain starts functioning? At the point of conception when the 23 chromosomes from mom and dad come together - that is an alive human being that has not yet formed to maturity. At no point in reproduction is the human not alive. At no point is that human genetically anything other than human.

A fetus is separate from the woman's body (has separate DNA) and so considered an innocent human life.



Quote:
How do you know your god...forseeing great danger to the eternal soul of this "human" because it would be born into a situation where it would even begin its life as "unwanted"...decided to take the soul into Heaven rather than subjecting it to the rigors of "the test?"


Even if the life is unwanted, there are people who stay on the waiting list for adoption for 12+ yrs. God always have his reasons that may not be seen until much later. An example: When this unwanted child is older and told that she is the product of a 15 year old being raped and that this young woman decided to keep her, she is alive and can appreciate such a sacrifice. What choice would she have prefered her mother make? Kill her or give her to a loving family? Which choice showed love? Which choice showed compassion? Which choice was right? ...and finally WWJD? Wink

I believe that the value of a human life comes before the race or creed of any individual person.

Also, though this may be another entirely different subject all together, Christians are in the belief that even our toughest struggles are to bring us closer to Christ. The reason "I" feel he'd rather have us go through these trials, is because God knows what we can handle/what we cannot. When we're one day reunited with Him, we can then ask him (if we didn't later figure out ourselves) why we had to suffer through such a thing. Until then, we must trust He has a plan.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 07:09 pm
Joahaeyo wrote:
Quote:
How can the people who accept this god...absolutely rule out the possibility that the god wants the abortion performed?


Maybe if we were in Heaven (and let's just say for argument sake there was sin), then He would decide what was best for the woman who is pregnant due to being raped or flat-out was unwanted/unplanned. There is just not scripture for us that say "we" should have the final authority to have at destroying the life of the unborn, just that we should protect it.


Jo

I thank you for at least attempting to deal with my post.

But...you quoted my question...and then simply ignored it rather than actually answering it. So allow me to ask it again:

Quote:
How can the people who accept this god...absolutely rule out the possibility that the god wants the abortion performed?




Quote:
Going back to "Thou shall not kill."

At what point is the baby either non-living or non-human? The heart starts beating at about 3 weeks of gestation. Brainwaves start about 40 days after conception. Aren't people considered dead when their brain stops functioning? Why not consider them alive when their brain starts functioning? At the point of conception when the 23 chromosomes from mom and dad come together - that is an alive human being that has not yet formed to maturity. At no point in reproduction is the human not alive. At no point is that human genetically anything other than human.


But the point you are overlooking is that at no point is the embryo or the fetus...anything other than an embryo or a fetus. It is not recognized as a PERSON by law. If you disagree with that...I suggest you try declaring an embryo or a fetus as a dependent on your tax return...and see what the courts rule.


Quote:
A fetus is separate from the woman's body (has separate DNA) and so considered an innocent human life.


Only by someone who insist that is the case despite the fact that law...and who is blinded by "belief" to the point where she will say things that obviously are not so.

A fetus is entirely dependent upon the woman carrying it...it is not separate from it physically or biologically.

And if the woman decides she no longer wishes to host the fetus...she should be allowed to terminate it.



Quote:
How do you know your god...forseeing great danger to the eternal soul of this "human" because it would be born into a situation where it would even begin its life as "unwanted"...decided to take the soul into Heaven rather than subjecting it to the rigors of "the test?"


Even if the life is unwanted, there are people who stay on the waiting list for adoption for 12+ yrs. God always have his reasons that may not be seen until much later. An example: When this unwanted child is older and told that she is the product of a 15 year old being raped and that this young woman decided to keep her, she is alive and can appreciate such a sacrifice. What choice would she have prefered her mother make? Kill her or give her to a loving family? Which choice showed love? Which choice showed compassion? Which choice was right? ...and finally WWJD? Wink[/quote]

Once again, as up above, you quoted my question...and then simply ignored it rather than answering it. So, I will take this opportunity to ask it again:

Quote:
How do you know your god...forseeing great danger to the eternal soul of this "human" because it would be born into a situation where it would even begin its life as "unwanted"...decided to take the soul into Heaven rather than subjecting it to the rigors of "the test?"



Quote:
I believe that the value of a human life comes before the race or creed of any individual person.


Okay...so do I. But what does that have to do with this discussion?


Quote:
Also, though this may be another entirely different subject all together, Christians are in the belief that even our toughest struggles are to bring us closer to Christ. The reason "I" feel he'd rather have us go through these trials, is because God knows what we can handle/what we cannot. When we're one day reunited with Him, we can then ask him (if we didn't later figure out ourselves) why we had to suffer through such a thing. Until then, we must trust He has a plan.


Well...you certainly are entitled to your "belief."

But what if you don't ever get that chance, because you end up in Hell.

Of what value is it to a soul...if it is "saved" from abortion....(and an eternity in Heaven with God)...and then ends up in Hell?

Do you think that a few years struggling here on planet Earth are worth it if ALL OF ETERNITY is spent in Hell rather than Heaven?


Once again...you are braver than some in that you have at least attempted to deal with these questions.
0 Replies
 
Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 07:37 pm
Quote:
How can the people who accept this god...absolutely rule out the possibility that the god wants the abortion performed?


I don't think I can further answer this in a way you feel satisfied (meaning I can't think of how to...). All I have is my belief and the churches ...that it would be considered murder thus absolutely ruled out for us to have that right to make such a decision to prevent life from happening.



Quote:
But the point you are overlooking is that at no point is the embryo or the fetus...anything other than an embryo or a fetus.


Ah, but this is not true. Wink "Fetus'" have been born prematurely several MONTHS before "it is ready" and have survived.


Quote:
It is not recognized as a PERSON by law. If you disagree with that...I suggest you try declaring an embryo or a fetus as a dependent on your tax return...and see what the courts rule.


True, true. ...but what do the courts know. Wink Try saying the same about gay marriages 10 yrs ago. Nowadays, seems anything is possible (though i admit far-fetched).






Quote:
How do you know your god...forseeing great danger to the eternal soul of this "human" because it would be born into a situation where it would even begin its life as "unwanted"...decided to take the soul into Heaven rather than subjecting it to the rigors of "the test?"


If that was his will, I imagine He ....not you (in general).... would make that decision. Maybe to test/help someone grow, "He" will choose to terminate this pregnancy, I don't know, but He wouldn't want us to make a decision based off of our own will.

I see what you're saying, but this my best answer which I can already tell not what you are wanting to hear.


Quote:
Do you think that a few years struggling here on planet Earth are worth it if ALL OF ETERNITY is spent in Hell rather than Heaven?


If my decision is wrong, you're right ....I will be held accountable. Hopefully this does not mean hell. This is what we are taught by our elders and leaders (preachers). He will take this into account (the laws in which the church have made on earth) and the one He had maybe intended. Since we are here to love, I don't see how making a healthy woman give birth could be a sin.


Some of what you're asking is just too complex for me (trying to understand what you mean), so I haven't necessarily ignored something on purpose. Wink
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 02:23 am
Joahaeyo wrote:
Some of what you're asking is just too complex for me (trying to understand what you mean), so I haven't necessarily ignored something on purpose. Wink


Well, Jo, you are doing a damn good job of defending what you see to be correct...and I admire that.

We'll just agree to disagree...and see if anyone else wants to get involved in this line of speculation.

Have a good day. I've got a match today at a particularly difficult golf course...and I suspect I'm gonna be a bear when I get back home. So hold on to your hat (if you wear one!) :wink:
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 07:35 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
cannistershot wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
One other item in the "religion" argument on this issue has to be covered.

For the sake of this next commentary...let us SUPPOSE there is a God...and that the God is the god described in the Bible....and let us further SUPPOSE that the embryo or fetus is actually a complete human being.

How can the people who accept this god...absolutely rule out the possibility that the god wants the abortion performed?

If you are correct that the fetus is a complete human being...possessed of a soul that will be accepted into Heaven upon its death to spend eternity with the god...and if the soul of this human being when aborted does go to this "reward"....why are you so certain your god didn't want that to happen?

How do you know your god...forseeing great danger to the eternal soul of this "human" because it would be born into a situation where it would even begin its life as "unwanted"...decided to take the soul into Heaven rather than subjecting it to the rigors of "the test?"

Maybe the god needs company...because except for the souls who come to him pure from abortions...he gets no other company.

Maybe abortion is a part of your god's plans.

Your god certainly claims the souls of many babies and children...often by having military people drop bombs on them...so the idea of the god wanting untainted souls is not really all that far-fetched...is it?

Maybe each "baby" saved by Operation Rescue and its like...ultimately ends up in Hell. Maybe each move by the religious people who oppose abortion...is a move in direct contradiction to what the god wants. Maybe the abortions are doing the god's work...and the anti-abortions doing the work of Satan!



Ok your post is wrong from the first word to the last, but I have to admit that I got a good chuckle out of it.


Yeah...that was cute.

But I notice you didn't have the balls to make any arguments against it.

Smart move on your part...because I would blow you out of the water on this issue.



Argue about what? We can post 10,000 arguements and I will still know that God is real and you will still think that he isn't. I will still be against abortion and you will still think that killing babies is ok.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 08:34 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
Joahaeyo wrote:
Some of what you're asking is just too complex for me (trying to understand what you mean), so I haven't necessarily ignored something on purpose. Wink


Well, Jo, you are doing a damn good job of defending what you see to be correct...and I admire that.

We'll just agree to disagree...and see if anyone else wants to get involved in this line of speculation.

Have a good day. I've got a match today at a particularly difficult golf course...and I suspect I'm gonna be a bear when I get back home. So hold on to your hat (if you wear one!) :wink:


Everybody wants to be a Bear.....
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 09:00 am
cannistershot wrote:
Argue about what? We can post 10,000 arguements and I will still know that God is real...



Yeah...sure!

Because you guess there is a God...that makes it "real."

No wonder you are a conservative...you simply keep your brain on off.

Quote:
...and you will still think that he isn't.


Get someone with an ability to think to help you with this, Cannister...

...I am an agnostic.

I do not know if there is a God or not...and I DO NOT SEE ENOUGH EVIDENCE UPON WHICH TO MAKE A GUESS IN EITHER DIRECTION!

See if there is a school kid around who can help you understand that!


Quote:
I will still be against abortion and you will still think that killing babies is ok.


No, Cannister, I will never think that killing babies is okay. But that does not mean that I must suppose "abortion" is the killing of a baby.

By the way...we kill babies every day in Iraq whenever we drop bombs on "insurgent" positions.

Do you oppose that?

And your "god" killed an entire nation of babies for absolutely no reason. You can read about it in Exodus...or you can get someone to read it to you.

Any chance you think your god is a scumbag for doing that?
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 09:14 am
I still KNOW that God is real.
0 Replies
 
Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 10:14 am
Men who play golf are sexy ---- imo.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 10:24 am
cannistershot wrote:
I still KNOW that God is real.

______
Please define is for me


Cannister, did you intend the irony of your post with your signature.

I love it!
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 11:00 am
ebrown_p wrote:
cannistershot wrote:
I still KNOW that God is real.

______
Please define is for me


Cannister, did you intend the irony of your post with your signature.

I love it!


No I didn't.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 02:13 pm
That's too bad. I found it amusing.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 02:34 pm
cannistershot wrote:
I still KNOW that God is real.


Yeah...sure you do.

And Edgar KNOWS there are no gods.

Give it a break, Cannister. You obviouosly do not know what you are talking about...and you cannot admit it.

I do understand why you like Bush, though.
0 Replies
 
knnknn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 03:22 pm
Abortion and contraception was known at Jesus' times.

Yet it's not even mentioned in the bible as something bad.
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 03:23 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
cannistershot wrote:
I still KNOW that God is real.


Yeah...sure you do.

And Edgar KNOWS there are no gods.

Give it a break, Cannister. You obviouosly do not know what you are talking about...and you cannot admit it.

I do understand why you like Bush, though.


If that is the way Edgar feels fine, if you are not sure fine, I however am positive that God exists and I will not give that up.
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 03:24 pm
By the way, hey Frank I was worried you hadn't insulted me all day.
0 Replies
 
cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 03:25 pm
knnknn wrote:
Abortion and contraception was known at Jesus' times.

Yet it's not even mentioned in the bible as something bad.



Hey knn I love the avatar isn't that the logo of the democratic party?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Oct, 2004 03:31 pm
cannistershot wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
cannistershot wrote:
I still KNOW that God is real.


Yeah...sure you do.

And Edgar KNOWS there are no gods.

Give it a break, Cannister. You obviouosly do not know what you are talking about...and you cannot admit it.

I do understand why you like Bush, though.


If that is the way Edgar feels fine, if you are not sure fine, I however am positive that God exists and I will not give that up.


Yeah...I can see that.

And I understand...since you seem to "be positive" that the god that exists...is that barbaric, murderous, cartoon god described in the Bible.

You gotta be very, very insistent that you "are positive" in that god...because you are in very deep shyt if you cross that silly excuse for a god.

So keep it up. And don't mind that I liken it to all those Iraqis who professed love and admiration for Saddam while he was still in power.

:wink:
0 Replies
 
 

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