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Would Jesus condone abortion?

 
 
Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 04:05 pm
Yes.

I think the whole point in having faith in God is knowing he will get you through the rough times and IT IS possible to survive (mentally, physically, etc) if the child was unwanted.

Being pregnant is a gift, and it clearly says in the Bible we shall not kill and from Bible Answers, it says the word means anything that is "premeditated and deliberate act of taking someone's life."


Quote:

In Exodus 21:22 God gives a specific law regarding social order for the Israelites. He stated that if two men were fighting and hit a pregnant woman, thus causing her to give birth prematurely, they must be fined according to any damage done to the baby. The fine must be paid in relation to the amount of damage inflicted upon the child. If God would make a law specifically referring to the rights of the unborn, then surely the unborn must mean something to Him!

It has been stated If the womb had windows, there would be no abortion. As humans, we are not omnipresent and cannot know the full scope of what each human life is worth. We cannot dwell in the womb with a fetus, nor can we see it as it matures. But God can.


Quote:

A Scientific View

Just 18 days after conception, the baby's heart begins to beat. At six weeks, brain waves can be measured. At eight weeks the vital organs are functioning and fingerprints have formed. At nine weeks, the unborn baby is able to feel pain. Over 700,000 abortions each year are performed after this point in the pregnancy. By the beginning of the second month, the unborn child, small as it is, has begun to look distinctly human, though the mother may not even be aware that she is pregnant! By the time the baby is eleven weeks old, he or she breaths (fluid), swallows, digests, sleeps, dreams, wakes, tastes, hears, and feels pain.




Quote:
A Spiritual View

God said to the prophet Jeremiah, Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. Jeremiah 1:5 God knew this man before he was born. As he was forming in his mother's womb God gave him his personality, talents, and temperament. If his mother had gotten an abortion, the "fetal tissue" she aborted would have been a real person named Jeremiah; a mighty prophet of God and the gift of God's voice to the nations, though she would never have known.

The Lord hath called me from the womb: from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. Isaiah 49:1 KJV

Did not he who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us within our mothers? Job 31:15

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Psalm 139:13-14


This is why MOST Christians/denominations are against it.

www.bible.com/answers/aabort.html
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Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 04:07 pm
This is another reason.

Warning VERY graphic.

http://abortionismurder.com/notconvinced.shtml
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 04:11 pm
Let's remember that we are talking about what the guy, Jesus, would have thought about abortion. Let's try to avoid the broader abortion issue as that gets too messy too fast and we have had that discussion a million times with no change.

I like the reference to ancient writtings. The time of Jesus is an important part of this discussion as it would have influenced his thinking and teachings.
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hollycat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 04:15 pm
I'll put it in one word to end this facade -

If you read the bible, one of the commandments reads, "Though shall not Kill"

I'll leave it at that for you to decide...
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 04:20 pm
Well I will offer an alternative understanding of 21:22. The value of a child is shown to be less important than that of the mother. If the mother dies they pay equally and give their lives, but if the child dies, they just pay with money.

I don't think he would have been pro-abortion, just in between, saying, "Only abort to save the life of the mother." or something like that.

Another important note is in hebrew there are a few words for soul, and they all have some extra meanings and are typically equivalent though a little different. For example about the meanings:

nefesh = life, soul, life-essence, breath.

The concept of life and soul are linked to breath and for someone raised at that time speaking Hebrew, well, languages shapes our understanding of the world. What is breathing is alive and has a soul.

As to the later passages, could it not simply mean a) that they were destined to be what they are since before they were alive and b) that as He has His hands in everything else, God is involved in the shaping of a developing fetus into something that is living?

Dauer
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 04:24 pm
hollycat wrote:
I'll put it in one word to end this facade -

If you read the bible, one of the commandments reads, "Though shall not Kill"

I'll leave it at that for you to decide...


Thou shalt not murder.

If it was thou shalt not kill, then God lied when He sent the Israelites to wage war, about eating animals, capital punishment, etc.

And at that point where it is thou shalt not murder, it doesn't resolve anything because it is not clarified whether abortion is murder.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 04:50 pm
I'll go back to a point I made earlier.

Since he never said a single word on the subject, we simply have no idea of whether Jesus would or would not have condoned abortion.

But we can answer the question of whether or not he spoke out against abortion...

...and the answer to that is...apparently not, because there is no record whatever of him saying anything about it.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 06:03 pm
But we can reason that he was jewish, lived in the Israel area of the middle easet and was a man that believed in God.

I doubt that when Jesus said "Thou shalt not kill" he had a subtext that read *except fetuses.
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 06:07 pm
McG,

Then does that mean that Christians should be vegeterians? And how can you assume automatically that fetuses are included if it only applies to people, and even if it doesn't? That's applying your contemporary understanding to the words.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 06:26 pm
McGentrix wrote:
But we can reason that he was jewish, lived in the Israel area of the middle easet and was a man that believed in God.

I doubt that when Jesus said "Thou shalt not kill" he had a subtext that read *except fetuses.



Jesus had an opportunity to say "abortion is wrong."

He didn't.

Get over it...and stop trying to manufacture a Jesus comment.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 06:34 pm
The discussion isn't "what did Jesus say" Frank. If that's all you want, then you are right. He didn't say anything about it that was written down. You can go now.
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Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 06:38 pm
Why must it be specifically said to be implied? He said not to hurt the unborn. He never said many things were wrong but common sense can take what he has given and put it into the situations not mentioned in the Bible. Why is this generally, as mentioned, and overall thought by "most" Christians (that abortion is wrong)? Of course this does not mean we are correct, but it certaintly does suggest we shouldn't have to "get over it." Wink

Frank, you're such a meanie. Wink
We're answering the thread and giving "why" reasons to the question presented.
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Terry
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Oct, 2004 07:39 pm
Asking if Jesus would condone abortion is as pointless as asking whether he would have chosen to be born knowing that hundreds or thousands of baby boys would be slaughtered as a result.

We just don't know (and Jesus has not seen fit to tell us), but I see no reason to guess that the son of a God who killed all of the first born in Egypt, ordered the Israelites to slaughter women (many of whom were undoubtedly pregnant) and children by the thousands, and gave Moses a holy ritual for inducing abortion in wives suspected of infidelity, would oppose abortion.

The Jews of Jesus' day did not have access to the medical knowledge and equipment that we have today where virtually all children survive to adulthood and early abortion is safer (and far cheaper) than giving birth. They did not live in a world where woman are permitted to have careers other than motherhood and overpopulation is a serious problem. If they did, do you think that their views on abortion would be any different than Jews of today?

Times have changed but the Bible unfortunately has not. What would Jesus say about organ donation, surrogate mothers, mandatory vaccinations, cybersex, smoking marijuana (or tobacco, for that matter), speed limits, polygamy, civil liberties, gun ownership, affirmative action, or any of the other problems that face society today?

Why do you suppose that Jesus has never come back with guidance on these issues?

For that matter, why do you suppose that God gives women so little control over their bodies, inflicts pregnancies on women who do not want them, and withholds them from women who desperately want children? If an omniscient God knows that a particular embryo will be aborted (or miscarried, for that matter), why on earth would he cause it to be conceived in the first place?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:42 am
Way ta go, Terry.


And if your god wouldn't oppose abortion, McG...what makes you think Jesus would...

...except that you frantically (and despite the illogic of it) want to "believe" he would in order to put him on George Bush's side of the ledger in this election.

Jesus could have mentioned abortion...just as Hippocrates did.

HE DIDN'T!

So any speculation that he would have opposed it is not only idle speculation...it is inconsistent with the record.

You can go now, McG. It is obvious you are not able to think clearly on this issue. And I suspect that is why you wanted discussion of it out of that other thread.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:44 am
Joahaeyo wrote:
Frank, you're such a meanie. Wink
We're answering the thread and giving "why" reasons to the question presented.


I understand.

Yes...I am a meanie!

But just as you are responding to this thread...so am I.

And I have the advantage of the facts...few though they may be! :wink:
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Greyfan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 05:48 am
The divinity of Jesus is an issue here. If, as Christians believe, Jesus was speaking to and on behalf of humanity for all time, his words, or lack of them, have a different weight than if, as many non-Christians believe, he was just a regular guy in a fixed place and time, whose thoughts reflect the prejudices and opinions of his own era.

If the latter is the case, his opinion of abortion, if he'd had one, should carry no more weight than yours or mine.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 06:17 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
Way ta go, Terry.


And if your god wouldn't oppose abortion, McG...what makes you think Jesus would...

...except that you frantically (and despite the illogic of it) want to "believe" he would in order to put him on George Bush's side of the ledger in this election.

Jesus could have mentioned abortion...just as Hippocrates did.

HE DIDN'T!

So any speculation that he would have opposed it is not only idle speculation...it is inconsistent with the record.

You can go now, McG. It is obvious you are not able to think clearly on this issue. And I suspect that is why you wanted discussion of it out of that other thread.


Frank, you sound bitter. First of all, if you have been paying attention you would know that I am not a christian and I support abortion.

Secondly, this is a discussion as to what Jesus would have believed. He isn't here to discuss it with us so we must speculate. I find it difficult to believe that Jesus, as a rabbi and man of God would have supported abortion. The Christian religions certainly don't and if you'll pardon me for thinking so, I would suspect that there are biblical scholars and experts on Christianity throughout history that would know more than either of us.

Imagine that a religion 2000 years old that has never supported the killing of fetus' would be wrong because their Messiah never "mentioned it in the bible."

Now as an aside, for you to even discuss God is somewhat funny to me with you being the supreme Agnostic and all.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 09:40 am
McGentrix wrote:
Frank, you sound bitter.


Not at all! Perhaps there is something wrong with your hearing!


Quote:
First of all, if you have been paying attention you would know that I am not a christian and I support abortion.


You are just full of non sequiturs these days, McG.

Where did I ever say that you are a Christian...or that you do not support abortion.

I spoke of your desire to keep the moron in office...and I directed my comment in that direction.


Quote:
Secondly, this is a discussion as to what Jesus would have believed. He isn't here to discuss it with us so we must speculate.


Okay...that is what you are doing...and that is what I am doing.

What is your problem with that?


Quote:
I find it difficult to believe that Jesus, as a rabbi and man of God would have supported abortion.


Really! Well thank you for sharing that.

However...based on the fact that there is no recorded instance of him actually speaking out against it...I have difficulty understanding why you "find it difficult to believe" it.

Personally, I (like several others here) acknowledge that I do not know what Jesus did or did not think about abortion...but since he did not speak out against it (and he did speak out against many other things) I do not see it as reasonable to suppose he did oppose it. He may have...but you are basing any guesses that he did...on damn near nothing.


Quote:
The Christian religions certainly don't and if you'll pardon me for thinking so, I would suspect that there are biblical scholars and experts on Christianity throughout history that would know more than either of us.


Yet another non sequitur. What does this mean?


Quote:
Imagine that a religion 2000 years old that has never supported the killing of fetus' would be wrong because their Messiah never "mentioned it in the bible."


What are you drinking or smoking? Where did I ever even suggest this?



Quote:
Now as an aside, for you to even discuss God is somewhat funny to me with you being the supreme Agnostic and all.


Well...apparently that has to do with limitations in your intellect, McG. Agnostics...and atheists, for that matter, discuss gods quite often. You really ought to pay attention to the religion threads. They are filled with agnostics and atheists discussing gods all the time.
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 10:33 am
I recall reading "be fruitful and multiply" but not get pregnant decide that you are mad at the babies daddy and then kill it. I really don't think that Jesus would condone it at all.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 10:41 am
I do not believe Jesus would condone it either, but I do not believe he would deny a womans choice either. He will most certainly judge our choices at a later date....and quite possibly forgive them .......but not interfere with them.

That's His thing.
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