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Would Jesus condone abortion?

 
 
Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:52 pm
Quote:

There are physical, emotional, mental, financial and other personal reasons why a woman might have an abortion.




FreeDuck, howdy.

...but if this were to remain a thread regarding how Christians feel about abortion and not just a situation of a nonbeliever, then we would say that God will provide for the woman (believer) who continues to put faith in Him to do so. Whether it be by the help of a Mercy home, the local church, or volunteer family/community. It may not be the best life, but it will be a life that will get them by.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:56 pm
I think it's about how Jesus feels about abortion. We already know that Chrisitans of many faiths would have faith in God to care for her. My point is that Jesus was a compassionate man and would have had mercy on her and her family.
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:56 pm
Jo,

Isn't this actually a thread about what Jesus felt, and not what Christians feel?

I'm trying to get around the apologetics, but I'm mostly being ignored. I agree with Frank anyway that this is near impossible to answer, even if it is accepted for the sake of this conversation that all the quotes put into the mouth of Jesus are true.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:57 pm
Hey dauer, I read your earlier post which was really insightful. I didn't comment on it because I needed to answer something from earlier.
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:59 pm
dauer wrote:
Jo,

Isn't this actually a thread about what Jesus felt, and not what Christians feel?

I'm trying to get around the apologetics, but I'm mostly being ignored. I agree with Frank anyway that this is near impossible to answer, even if it is accepted for the sake of this conversation that all the quotes put into the mouth of Jesus are true.


This thread turned long before jo posted. She has a right to post too.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:00 pm
Down boy. Nobody's telling her not to post.
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Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:00 pm
FreeDuck, I do agree that Jesus would have mercy on a woman who did get an abortion for her choice.


dauer, okay back on topic (though i'm sure i and others will stray again). Wink


As far as the argument that Jesus never addressed abortion:

I know that at no point is the newly conceived human not alive. They are always alive. They are always human. Suck the DNA out of a cell of a zygote, and you will see that that zygote is 100% human. Jesus said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I think that killing someone would fall under a bad thing using this rule.

So that's what I think. I'm still enjoying this thread and reading the other thoughts and opinions even if they differ.
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:05 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Down boy. Nobody's telling her not to post.


Sorry I did read more intense than I meant it to. I just wanted to state that she didn't turn the thread.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:06 pm
No, she didn't turn it. It's been all over the place and I know I've helped it stray.
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:10 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
No, she didn't turn it. It's been all over the place and I know I've helped it stray.


We all have, but I don't mind I have yet to thread a post that stays on subject.
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:11 pm
Jo, we really don't know enough to determine any of that, but we can understand the contemporary sentiments and see how this may have influenced Jesus' thinking. To me, that's the best we can do because the gospels were later and contain so many historical inaccuracies.

Also, you're assuming he acted on this issue. If nothing is recorded, clearly it wasn't a big issue at all, either that or you could posit somebody censored it in the future. But that doesn't make sense considering the Church position on abortion.

Now, in your next paragraph you are applying modern science to Jesus' beliefs about abortion. This does not work. You also claim that because it has human DNA it is a human, which is a flaud argument because if I chop off my hand, my hand is now not a new life. When I want to upset pro-lifers and get a conversation going -- if it's on topic -- I tell them a fetus is no different than a parasite that sucks away the mother's energy and feeds off of her. Now I do not believe it's that simple, but my arguement works just as well as yours. You can't apply modern thought to an ancient thinker unless there is sufficient evidence they though the same thing. Taking into account the views of the time, this does not appear to be the case.
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Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:11 pm
also, to add on, the Bible speaks of how God knew you before you were formed in your mother's womb. There's another verse that says something like I knew the plans I had for you before you were even planned. It may be in Jeremiah...



Psalm 139:13-16
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:13 pm
Joahaeyo wrote:
FreeDuck, I do agree that Jesus would have mercy on a woman who did get an abortion for her choice.


dauer, okay back on topic (though i'm sure i and others will stray again). Wink


As far as the argument that Jesus never addressed abortion:

I know that at no point is the newly conceived human not alive. They are always alive. They are always human. Suck the DNA out of a cell of a zygote, and you will see that that zygote is 100% human. Jesus said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I think that killing someone would fall under a bad thing using this rule.


It is something that can become a human...but it is not a human. That is why it is called an embryo...or a fetus. But it is no more a human or a person...than an egg is a chicken.

Suck the DNA out of a cancer cell...and you will see that the cancer cell is 100% human.

Would you argue that we cannot "kill" it on that account?

Quote:
So that's what I think. I'm still enjoying this thread and reading the other thoughts and opinions even if they differ.


I (and I suspect the others) are enjoying what you have to say also. We simply disagree.
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:14 pm
cannister,

Just to clarify things, I wasn't singling her out. I may have taken what she said out of context. I am not sure. But it seemed she had missed the point of the thread and was suggesting it was for something else.
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Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:16 pm
Quote:
I (and I suspect the others) are enjoying what you have to say also. We simply disagree.


yes! ...but I do learn from reading the other POV's. Smile


dauer, yes it does seem I started to think the thread was about what a Christian would say and not what actually came out of the mouth of Jesus. It's just confusing to me (the thread) since it's asking opinions to why people may think a certain way.
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willow tl
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:17 pm
Thanks ehBeth!
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:21 pm
Joahaeyo wrote:
Quote:
I (and I suspect the others) are enjoying what you have to say also. We simply disagree.


yes! ...but I do learn from reading the other POV's. Smile


dauer, yes it does seem I started to think the thread was about what a Christian would say and not what actually came out of the mouth of Jesus. It's just confusing to me (the thread) since it's asking opinions to why people may think a certain way.


I enjoy reading the other POV's as well, I have even changed my mind on a few things. I even enjoy Frank's posts, even if he is wrong 99% of the time. Laughing
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Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:22 pm
Monty Python lads:

Quote:
There are Jews in the world, there are Buddhists,
There are Hindus and Mormons and then,
There are those that follow Mohammed,
But I've never been one of them...

I'm a Roman Catholic, and have been since the day I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics,
Is they'll take you as soon as you're warm...

You don't have to be a six-footer,
You don't have to have a great brain,
You don't have to have any clothes on -
You're a Catholic the moment dad came...

because...

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs, on the dusty ground,
God shall make them pay for each sperm that can't be found

Every sperm is wanted, every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed in your neighbourhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill thiers just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred,
Every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed,
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is useful, every sperm is fine,
God needs everybody's,
Mine
And mine
And mine

Let the Pagan spill theirs,
O'er mountain, hill and plain,
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good,
Every sperm is needed in your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great,
If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate.


Laughing
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:24 pm
Joahaeyo wrote:
also, to add on, the Bible speaks of how God knew you before you were formed in your mother's womb. There's another verse that says something like I knew the plans I had for you before you were even planned. It may be in Jeremiah...



Psalm 139:13-16
13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.


Yes, but to their mind God was involved in everything. Everything had a plan. That this is mentioned only means they were speaking of God's role in the creation of a human, just like God's role in everything else. That is why if you read this psalm from the beginning you will see it showing how God knows everything that happens to a person, surrounds this person somehow, is in heaven and in Sheol (the grave), is holding them steady at all times, sees no difference between light and dark, took part in their creation.

But all of this compared to the very straightforward quote showing the penalty for killing a fetus being a fine and the penalty for killing the mother being the death penalty, it amounts to very little.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 03:25 pm
One other item in the "religion" argument on this issue has to be covered.

For the sake of this next commentary...let us SUPPOSE there is a God...and that the God is the god described in the Bible....and let us further SUPPOSE that the embryo or fetus is actually a complete human being.

How can the people who accept this god...absolutely rule out the possibility that the god wants the abortion performed?

If you are correct that the fetus is a complete human being...possessed of a soul that will be accepted into Heaven upon its death to spend eternity with the god...and if the soul of this human being when aborted does go to this "reward"....why are you so certain your god didn't want that to happen?

How do you know your god...forseeing great danger to the eternal soul of this "human" because it would be born into a situation where it would even begin its life as "unwanted"...decided to take the soul into Heaven rather than subjecting it to the rigors of "the test?"

Maybe the god needs company...because except for the souls who come to him pure from abortions...he gets no other company.

Maybe abortion is a part of your god's plans.

Your god certainly claims the souls of many babies and children...often by having military people drop bombs on them...so the idea of the god wanting untainted souls is not really all that far-fetched...is it?

Maybe each "baby" saved by Operation Rescue and its like...ultimately ends up in Hell. Maybe each move by the religious people who oppose abortion...is a move in direct contradiction to what the god wants. Maybe the abortions are doing the god's work...and the anti-abortions doing the work of Satan!
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