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Would Jesus condone abortion?

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 11:25 am
cannistershot wrote:
I recall reading "be fruitful and multiply" but not get pregnant decide that you are mad at the babies daddy and then kill it. I really don't think that Jesus would condone it at all.


You seem to have a very narrow idea of the circumstances for which a woman chooses to have an abortion.
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 11:33 am
FreeDuck wrote:
cannistershot wrote:
I recall reading "be fruitful and multiply" but not get pregnant decide that you are mad at the babies daddy and then kill it. I really don't think that Jesus would condone it at all.


You seem to have a very narrow idea of the circumstances for which a woman chooses to have an abortion.

No, sorry I had more on my post but posted it before I finished. I know that there are circumstances where a person would think that it would be ok, but it has turned into birth control.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 11:37 am
It is a form of birth control. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you understand the complexities of the decision.
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 11:44 am
FreeDuck wrote:
It is a form of birth control. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you understand the complexities of the decision.


I understand that someone would think that since they were raped, the baby had problems etc. then it would be ok. I just don't agree with it. If God didn't have a reason for that life it wouldn't have happened. I might would be open to a one time only per person type of deal if there was a circumstance that was dangerous to the mother etc. But just wanting to use it as birth control is not aceptable at all to me.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 11:50 am
Luckily for women in the US, it isn't up to you. And I take back my benefit of the doubt, you don't apparently have much insight into why a woman might choose to have an abortion.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 11:53 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Luckily for women in the US, it isn't up to you. And I take back my benefit of the doubt, you don't apparently have much insight into why a woman might choose to have an abortion.


What reasons are those?
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 12:01 pm
FreeDuck wrote:
Luckily for women in the US, it isn't up to you. And I take back my benefit of the doubt, you don't apparently have much insight into why a woman might choose to have an abortion.


I know people who have had abortions and I know what the reasons at that time were, I also know that they all regret it to this day. I think that the #1 reason is that the person in question feels is that they are too young. My grandmother was 14 when she had her first child, I know that times where different then but if that was today the world would be without a great doctor. In fact she had her second at 16 so that would be another person that has a company with close to 100 employees out of the picture.
I'm sure that there are 10,000 reasons why a woman would want to have an abortion I just don't agree with any of them. That being said I don't agree with the crazy people who bomb the clinics either, they are just as guilty of murder as the people who use the clinics and the doctors who perform the service.
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Magus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 01:53 pm
Jesus said : "Judge not" and "tend to the mote in your own eye".
He said "Cast not the first stone".

But McG's Jesus would carry a flaming sword and smite PRE-EMPTIVELY... just like al Quaeda.
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 01:57 pm
Magus wrote:
Jesus said : "Judge not" and "tend to the mote in your own eye".
He said "Cast not the first stone".

But McG's Jesus would carry a flaming sword and smite PRE-EMPTIVELY... just like al Quaeda.


Where did that come from?
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:05 pm
Simple, easy solution...

If you are against abortion, dont have one.

Dont try to rule others by YOUR religious beliefs

YOUR ideas/values/beliefs are not in MY body.

A decision isnt yours to make if it isnt about your body.

Usually people who live in a complete hell will be the ones who get worked up over someone elses choices. It is easier to focus on other things when you cant cope with your own situations/life/feeings.
That is what I think about anti-abortionists.
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dauer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:10 pm
McG, you said:

"Secondly, this is a discussion as to what Jesus would have believed. He isn't here to discuss it with us so we must speculate. I find it difficult to believe that Jesus, as a rabbi and man of God would have supported abortion. "

At the time that Jesus lived, a rabbi was not a preacher. A rabbi was a person who held a sort of legal position, working closely with other rabbis to discuss and write down the law. This is something that they did outside of however it was that they earned a living. If someone had a concern they could come before them for a ruling, but at this time they were mostly preserving things important to them. By the writing of the Talmud their concerns seem to be much more addressing the issues facing the average Judah.

It is my opinion that when Jesus is called a rabbi this is something that was lost in translation, and he should be called a moreh, a teacher.

If Jesus was indeed a rabbi and the claims about his beliefs are true, then he would have been recorded in rabbinic literature because even heretics, for instance Elisha ben Abuyah, are mentioned there if they were rabbis. And because of his views on certain torah laws, he would have been considered a heretic worth mentioning. The other thing about rabbis is they have to apprentice and then go through a ceremony in which they are initiated and given their legal authority.

Also, the earliest direct statement I know of from rabbis, men of God, on abortion is in the mishnah:

"If a woman suffer hard labour in travail, the child must be cut up in her womb and brought out piecemeal, for her life takes precedence over its life; if its greater part has [already] come forth, it must not be touched, for the [claim of one] life can not supersede [that of another] life.

M. Oholot 7:6

The greater part is the forehead. Hard labour in this case is one that threatens the mother's life.

Now the difficulty is dating the ruling. The mishnah was compiled around the year 200 CE but that was basically when Judah HaNasi organized to have a comprehensive "mishnah" that would be authoritative and would answer for all previous writings and oral rulings. However, it does not appear there are any opinions that disagree with this one, but just one answer. I don't have any idea how one would date the origin of this belief though.

Dauer
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:13 pm
shewolfnm wrote:
Simple, easy solution...

If you are against abortion, dont have one.

Dont try to rule others by YOUR religious beliefs

YOUR ideas/values/beliefs are not in MY body.

A decision isnt yours to make if it isnt about your body.

Usually people who live in a complete hell will be the ones who get worked up over someone elses choices. It is easier to focus on other things when you cant cope with your own situations/life/feeings.
That is what I think about anti-abortionists.


I cope pretty well with my situations/life/feelings in fact I am pretty content with my life. Do I think that all of my choices have been perfect? No but I haven't killed anyone.
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Joahaeyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:19 pm
Quote:
Simple, easy solution...

If you are against abortion, dont have one.

Dont try to rule others by YOUR religious beliefs

YOUR ideas/values/beliefs are not in MY body.

A decision isnt yours to make if it isnt about your body.



...and this is why Christians feel abortion is wrong. You've taken that right away from what possibly is a healthy living breathing human inside.
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cannistershot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:30 pm
Joahaeyo wrote:
Quote:
Simple, easy solution...

If you are against abortion, dont have one.

Dont try to rule others by YOUR religious beliefs

YOUR ideas/values/beliefs are not in MY body.

A decision isnt yours to make if it isnt about your body.



...and this is why Christians feel abortion is wrong. You've taken that right away from what possibly is a healthy living breathing human inside.


Thank you.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:41 pm
McGentrix wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Luckily for women in the US, it isn't up to you. And I take back my benefit of the doubt, you don't apparently have much insight into why a woman might choose to have an abortion.


What reasons are those?


For McG, and Cannister, I will tell you some reasons that I know of based on people that I know -- even though that's not what this thread is about.

There are physical, emotional, mental, financial and other personal reasons why a woman might have an abortion. I think cannister has a preconceived notion that only teenagers and single women become pregnant unexpectedly. Consider that quote you posted earlier from that article you looked up, McG.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:43 pm
Ahhh...what are you gonna say to these hypocrites...

...who constantly rail about keeping the government out of our lives...

...but have absolutely no trouble trying to get the government into the most intimate of personal situations?

Feel pity for 'em.

They really are lost!
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Magus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:44 pm
cannister, it came from the PRO-WAR activism I see in so many posts by McG.
When I see Jesus advising his followers to "turn the other cheek", I have difficulty reconciling that admonition with Imperialist war-mongering.
The Cult of the Sword and "Christianity" are contradictory... but it doesn't stop the Warrior-types from perverting Jesus' message to serve their agenda of Vengeance, Dominance and Death.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:45 pm
That was very useful information, Dauer. Definitely pertinent to this discussion.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:45 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Ahhh...what are you gonna say to these hypocrites...

...who constantly rail about keeping the government out of our lives...

...but have absolutely no trouble trying to get the government into the most intimate of personal situations?

Feel pity for 'em.

They really are lost!


AND......they want to put Jesus into womens vaginas.....I always thought he had declined that......
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Oct, 2004 02:47 pm
Quote:
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity [of opinion]. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_the_State_of_Virginia_(1781-85), _Oxford_Dictionary_of_Quotations_
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