Is truth subjective or objective?

heh heh. Agnostic Evangelist! Perfect.

I see. I'll defer to her on this now.

(unless my finger gets itchy)

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Frank Apisa wrote:

You prefer to pretend that the guess you make about REALITY...is somehow superior to my position of simply acknowledging that I do not know
Theist seem to feel that same way.
Sad for you folks.
Sad for the world

And no by the way, you don't get off that easy.

This is still a debate forum, and by gad even if I like some things about you, you ain't getting away with this crap!

Where do you get the idea I am a Theist? Assumption?

And you are so hilarious. Start with a sentence about someone else thinking they are superior (without any cites or proof I might add); and ending with

Frank Apisa wrote:

"Sad for you folks. Sad for the world."

Who has the superiority/inferiority complex here? Look in the mirror! Twisted Evil

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fresco

I never said that science have an objective status.
Sincerily I don't understand your reply, because it has nothing to do with my last post. As I said in the end 2+2 = 4 within a system where 2+2 = 4.

Reality and nature? If you consider nature in a cartesian way, then there is a difference.
To me, they are both the same. Reality or nature are our interaction with things. An intentional interaction, as I explained.

But I think you didn't understand my last post. No doubt because I was not clear enough and my english is terrible.
If that is the case, I would like you to mention the dubious points of that post.

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extra medium wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

You prefer to pretend that the guess you make about REALITY...is somehow superior to my position of simply acknowledging that I do not know
Theist seem to feel that same way.
Sad for you folks.
Sad for the world

And no by the way, you don't get off that easy.

This is still a debate forum, and by gad even if I like some things about you, you ain't getting away with this crap!

Where do you get the idea I am a Theist? Assumption?

Where do you get the idea that I think you are a Theist?

Learn to read...then argue.

Quote:

And you are so hilarious.

Yes I am. I shudda been a stand-up comic.

Quote:

Start with a sentence about someone else thinking they are superior (without any cites or proof I might add); and ending with

Frank Apisa wrote:
"Sad for you folks. Sad for the world."

Who has the superiority/inferiority complex here? Look in the mirror!

I did. It ain't me.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Learn to read...then argue.

LOL. Don't make me get up and come over there! Twisted Evil

I'll consider reading. In the meantime, I'll just argue. Very Happy

Actually I'm gaining some respect for your consistency and explanations.

But I must add you have this habit of just spouting out some judgmental crap, and when someone calls you on it, you just gloss it over and avoid the issue.

Hey, maybe you'd make a decent president after all! Twisted Evil

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extra medium wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Learn to read...then argue.

LOL. Don't make me get up and come over there!

I'll consider reading. In the meantime, I'll just argue.

Actually I'm gaining some respect for your consistency and explanations.

But I must add you have this habit of just spouting out some judgmental crap, and when someone calls you on it, you just gloss it over and avoid the issue.

Hey, maybe you'd make a decent president after all!

I do get testy...and I do try NOT to gloss over it. It is an unfortunate characteristic of my temperment.

But I much prefer quiet, logical discourse.

Let's give it a shot.

If I still owe you any explanations...ask for them and I will give them. I am willing to discuss this issue 'til the sun goes cold.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

You prefer to pretend that the guess you make about REALITY...is somehow superior to my position of simply acknowledging that I do not know

The above is the only thing I really have issue with. I enjoy debating sometimes, because I learn from it, examine my own ideas, hell sometimes realize my positions and ideas could be improved and I try to do that.

But throughout all the debates, I really try to not come off as if I think my position is superior. Because I truly believe most of us are fairly equal in all this. I don't think I even implied that I thought my position is superior.

So when you make comments like the above, I stop listening. You actually had a lot of good stuff to say after that, but you just lost me after you make the crack.

That probably happens with a lot of people.

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Until the sun goes cold?

We will all be long gone. Of course, perhaps the bees will have the opportunity to see that.

I know, you meant that as a figure of speech. Kudos... :wink:

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I thought, at the beginning of this thread, that
the question required one to choose either subjective or objective.

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You can see, Shepaints, by the emotional contortions we have displayed in this thread that the answer is at least partially "subjective." Our dualism requires of us that we choose between one or the other. The reality is probably a combination/interaction between the two, and perhaps more. I like to think that any adequate truth statement (philosophical or scientific proposition--as well as artistic statements) represents a point or bridge between subjective and objective realities.
No, "bridge between" sounds too dualistic. The reality is that interactions produce the realities which are neither this nor that, but a unitary both.

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Thanks JL, from your posts and TTF's I
have been somewhat "assimilated" ... but to clarify the question, shouldn't we also be asking:

(Is the truth subjective or objective?)

Response: From the perspective of whom or what?

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Perhaps, and we should determine or stipulate what we mean by "truth", reality or "accurate" propositions about reality.

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Person A is colorblind and sees an apple as a shade of gray and calls it gray.

Person B can see "normally" and they call the apple red.

Are both of them telling the truth?

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They are reporting what they see. If their reports are honest, they are being "truthful." This has nothing to do with metaphysical truth--as I see it. Laughing

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JLNobody wrote:

metaphysical truth

Sir,
Please kindly define. Razz

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I've decided - the truth is definitely objective....speaking subjectively of course! Smile

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Eorl, you've got it!

Extra Medium, "metaphysical truth" = "ultimately so."

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JLNobody wrote:

Eorl, you've got it!

Extra Medium, "metaphysical truth" = "ultimately so."

Darn. Thought I gotcha! Twisted Evil

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I'm reincarnating this thread; it may be useful in our attempts to come to understandings (ha! what a hope) in the later thread on "Objective Knowledge".

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Truth and reality are in the eyes of the beholder.

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Is truth subjective or objective?

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