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Is truth subjective or objective?

 
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 06:53 pm
It seems to me that you are so prepared to do very effective meditation, effortless, passive, let-go, nowhere to go, nothing to gain or to understand meditation.
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2005 11:15 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
the truth is that I do not know the nature of REALITY...and strongly suspect that they do not either.


Okay.

Then why even have a board like this?

No one knows anything about anything.

Fine. I can accept that.

Why even comment about it then?

Just to BS one another?

Well, if thats what we're doing, and we admit it, is there anything wrong with that?

I'm still not clear on what you consider the "truth." You just say the "truth is the truth." Using a word to define itself.
Meaningless.

But perhaps that is your point?

Your "right road" of truth means to admit we know nothing about reality?

Okay. Fine, what if we admit that.

In fact, maybe I know less about reality than you do.

But wait a minute, if that is true you must be pretending.

Or do we each know equally nothing?

Hmmm....almost buddhist. But I'm sure you'll jump all over that.

So I'll just leave it at we know nothing about nothing. And nothing about reality.

Cool.
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 01:04 pm
I think what Frank is saying is that there is always a certain level of uncertainty in trying to figure out the nature of REALITY (metaphysically).

Anyways, I would assert that we do know what reality is even if we are limited to the human senses. The level of uncertainty is the result of our pondering of possibilities. The uncertainty factor, is small enough however, that it is insignificant.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 04:23 pm
extra medium wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
the truth is that I do not know the nature of REALITY...and strongly suspect that they do not either.


Okay.

Then why even have a board like this?

No one knows anything about anything.


Get your head out of your ass, Extra...you're gonna sit down and snap your neck.

I NEVER said that "no one knows anything about anything."

I know plenty of things...and although you do your best to disguise it, I am sure you know a few things also.

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE ULTIMATE REALITY OF EXISTENCE IS.

Do you?

The rest of your post was absurd...and is not worthy of reply.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 08:24 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Get your head out of your ass, Extra...you're gonna sit down and snap your neck.
I know plenty of things...and although you do your best to disguise it, I am sure you know a few things also.
I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE ULTIMATE REALITY OF EXISTENCE IS.
Do you?
The rest of your post was absurd...and is not worthy of reply.


ooo tough guy! Nice. Must have touched a nerve! Twisted Evil

And yes, I have a healthy dose of awareness that on some levels, this is all Absurd.

That is, while I enjoy debating with others here the nature of what we perceive to be "reality," I am quite aware it is all ultimately absurd.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 09:04 pm
Oh, just ignore him, EM--except when he decides to be "charming."
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 09:27 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Oh, just ignore him, EM--except when he decides to be "charming."


I know...well I guess I gave in to the temptation to push his buttons.

Kinda entertaining. But its not right. I really should have more willpower and not do that...

-Extra (running for cover from the wrath of Frank!) Medium
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 09:34 pm
JLN,

I just posted a question on the Religion board re: "How Powerful is Satan?"

I've always been interested in this question, sort of as a kind of sociological question. That is, I try to understand how the Christian belief works and fits together from an objective viewpoint.

This is a question (among the thousands) that always mystified me re: Christian belief.

Interested if you have any take on that question. If you have no comment, of course I understand. Smile
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 09:36 pm
This thread is very interesting in that the Poll is one of the most evenly divided I've seen here:

Objectively speaking, roughly 50% are on each side of the question re: Is the truth objective or subjective?

Interesting.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2005 09:43 pm
EM, I'll check it out.
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twyvel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 12:17 am
JLNobody wrote:

Quote:
It seems to me that you are so prepared to do very effective meditation, effortless, passive, let-go, nowhere to go, nothing to gain or to understand meditation.



Nice.

Thank you.

(from and to one fiction)
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val
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 04:59 am
fresco


Quote:
"Nondualism" is essentially the resolution (by transcendence) of traditional dichotomies....idealism vs materialism....observer vs observed...self vs non-self...etc. It is the recognition that all boundaries are transient, and hence the concept of static class membership on which "logic" is based is always of limited application.


If we speak of dualism as the dichotomy body/soul, physical world/spiritual world, then I am not a dualist.

If the starting point of any philosophical idea about us is in our presence in experience, as I believe it is, that doesn't mean an experience subject/object in the cartesian tradition. Here I agree with you.
I see our experience between things - whatever "things" are - in two levels. First, our experience is intentional, external stimulations are already suposed in the ways we are present. If I need an hammer to do some work, and the hammer is in the other side of the room, the hammer is "near at hand", I mean, even if I have a saw in front of me, the hammer is closer because it belongs to my "circumvision" and the saw does not.
In fact, what I experience is not the hammer in itself. It is that thing that is used to do this or that, and that I learned is called hammer.
What I mean by this is that my experience of things occurs within conditions that are in me, not in things. Or better, things as I experience them, are in me. The hammer can be used to hurt somebody. But "that hamer used to hurt" is not in my experience in this moment; only the hamer "to do the work I planned".
We have a presence - we are that presence - and the conditions of the presence give the meaning to things. Intentionality being the field of a previous "meaningful" experience.
This said, traditional dualism has no place in this kind of perspective. Language, itself, is part of the conditions of my intentional experience.
Let me give you another example: there is a sign in the road that says: "Lisboa, 60 km".
- I live in Lisbon and I am driving in that road, anxious to get home and take a shower. The meaning of the sign is: "another 40' to get home!".
- I am a worker of the road and built that sign. It's meaning is: "I should have put it more to the left".
- My son died in an hospital in London 3 months ago. The sign means: Last time we were together it was in Lisbon and he was so happy to see a football match of Benfica!

It is not a problem of definitions. It is how things appear to me, within the reality of my experience conditions.
Here, I repeat, there is no dualism.

But see this other situation.
We both are in the car in that road. You don't speak portuguese. You see the sign and ask: what does it say?
And I answer: It says that we are at 60 km from Lisbon.
Here we have a definition as translation. It is as if the sign disappeared as thing, and we are dealing only with language. Because that is not what the sign says. The sign doesn't say anything in english. I am saying it. We are talking about words.

In this case, it is as if our presence in the world becomes abstract. We are reduced to propositions that are self predicated, echanging meanings in our languages.
Dualism reappears when we "cover" our presence and go to an imaginary place "behind" experience.
That is the case of science. I insist as I did before, that science veils our presence, and becomes by that a system of coherent languages, whose propositions have only meaning within those languages. Science does not refer to things of experience (whatever things are). But when it does, when an experiment is being made, the object of the experiment becomes the hammer of my example. The scientist tests a theory within his "circumvision".

To give you an example: 2+2 = 4? Yes, within a system were 2+2 = 4.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 09:43 am
Val,

I am trying to resolve your "two levels."
I will get back to you.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 11:25 am
extra medium wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Get your head out of your ass, Extra...you're gonna sit down and snap your neck.
I know plenty of things...and although you do your best to disguise it, I am sure you know a few things also.
I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE ULTIMATE REALITY OF EXISTENCE IS.
Do you?
The rest of your post was absurd...and is not worthy of reply.


ooo tough guy! Nice. Must have touched a nerve! Twisted Evil


Nope...no nerve touched.

Your silly bullshyt of pretending that I am saying that nothing can be known is not nearly up to that job.

I just wanted to warn you that you had your head up your ass...in order to save you from snapping your neck by sitting down without thinking.



You do think once in a while, don't you?

I can't tell from your posts.

In any case, as regards the question: How is it that all this IS...and what is its nature?...

...my response is: I do not know...and I do not have nearly enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess.

Is your situation different?
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fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 12:26 pm
Val,

I agree that what we call "scientific knowledge" seems at first sight to have an "objective status". However as Heisbenerg said, what scientists observe is not nature itself, but nature's reponse to their method of questioning. In as much as this "method of questioning" is unified within a particular socio-historical paradigm this IMO
constitutes "objectivity". We have simply moved our focus from "self" as an organism to "society" as an organism. This is perhaps an alternative to your use of "cover".

In the above "reality" is not synonymous with "nature". Reality is the interaction between internal and external states(=nature). "Experience" is the internal state associated with a "self" interaction.

The dualistic division of "internal versus external" breaks down within a "hierachy of processing systems " from cell to ecosystem or beyond. Boundaries are organizational.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 12:41 pm
Fresco, well put.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 02:54 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
I just wanted to warn you that you had your head up your ass...in order to save you from snapping your neck by sitting down without thinking.


What unambiguous evidence are you basing this observation on?

Frank Apisa wrote:
You do think once in a while, don't you?.


Oops, my thought patterns must not have matched yours precisely.

I must try harder to follow your thought patterns and pound mine into the same mold.

Much like the religous fundamentalists ask me to do!

Why do you remind me of religous fundamentalists I have met?
I am not making this up. I have no reason to make up such a bizarre thing.But for the life of me, you remind me so much of a religous fundamentalist! Thats not necessarily a bad thing, I hope you don't get too mad.... An evangelist! You are an evangelist!

Frank Apisa wrote:
You do think once in a while, don't you?.


What would be the purpose of thinking if we don't have unambiguous evidence to base our thinking on? Do you just want to tell yourself pretty lies with your thinking? Probably your thinking is all just little lies to make yourself feel better about yourself. What you call thinking I call Frank daydreaming illusions of grandeur.

Frank Apisa wrote:
I can't tell from your posts.


Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.

Frank Apisa wrote:
In any case, as regards the question: How is it that all this IS...and what is its nature?...my response is: I do not know...and I do not have nearly enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess. Is your situation different?


I agree with you here. And no my situation is not different.

In fact, I am just saying take your thought and take one more step with it.

Do you fear the following? Expand your mind even more!

***

Let me attempt to make my point more clearly:

I understand what you are saying regarding none of us have unambiguous evidence that might allow us to make certain assumptions regarding the nature of ultimate reality.

My point is (and try not to get too mad about this or call names because of it or make judgments of my intelligence on it):

Do you have any unambiguous evidence of anything?

(and I know you'll say something to the effect of "well I have unambiguous evidence that you EM are an idiot") Okay, I'll grant you that, Frank--if you need that crap to feel better about yourself.

(I don't know why small minds who are threatened have to continually prove they are small-minded by putting down others, throw insults, etc., to make themselves feel better about themselves, instead of debating the topic at hand. Oops I think I answered my own question, if I would only think.)

But what I am trying to get you to address is: Just as you say we have no unambiguous knowledge of ultimate reality...by the same token, I am saying we have no unambiguous evidence or knowledge of ANYTHING!

What do you have unambiguous evidence of?

Where do you draw the line?

What is real?

What do you know unambiguously, and what are you not sure of, and where do you draw that line. What do you base your certainty on?

And this thinking that you seem so proud of.
How do you know that is all not just a pack of dam* lies you are telling yourself?

(I predict you might say "we have unambiguous evidence from science. we have what we can see. what we can feel. what is. truth is truth. reality is reality."-- I say thats all BS and several people here can riddle any of those areas with ambiguity--the ENTIRE DEAL is ambiguous!)
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 03:53 pm
Extra Medium...

...that was such a nice attempt at being intellectual about this issue, I almost hate to point out that it falls flat on its face.

You are trying...not especially successfully...to suggest that it makes more sense to guess your way about this particular unknown...than to simply acknowledge that I do not know the answer...and that I do not have sufficient unambiguous evidence upon which to base a guess.

And you are trying to pretend that the deficiency....is one with which I must deal in everything...so that you can accuse me of being inconsistent.

That simply is a crock of horseshyt.

Nice try (as I already noted)...but horseshyt.

In any case...I am an evangelical agnostic, of sorts.

I see great value in dealing with this particular issue from the strongest position possible...namely, the truth. I do not know if a God exists; I do not know if no gods exist; I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess.

THAT IS THE TRUTH.

I suspect you are in exactly the same position...but that you do not have the strength of character to simply leave it there.

You prefer to pretend that the guess you make about REALITY...is somehow superior to my position of simply acknowledging that I do not know

Theist seem to feel that same way.

Sad for you folks.

Sad for the world.

I would not be surprised to find that "Belief" is gonna destroy us some day.




Quote:
(I predict you might say "we have unambiguous evidence from science. we have what we can see. what we can feel. what is. truth is truth. reality is reality."-- I say thats all BS and I several people here can riddle any of those areas with ambiguity--the ENTIRE DEAL is ambiguous!)


Well...you've not been around very long...or you would realize just how absurd that thought is.

I am as agnostic about scientific pronouncements as I am about religious or atheistic pronouncements.

I am not as afraid of the words "I do not know" as you apparently are.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 04:15 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
I am not as afraid of the words "I do not know" as you apparently are.


Hmmm....not sure about that. I do not know. I'll have to think about that. Twisted Evil

Actually, I think we may agree on more things than either of us cares to admit.

But if we admitted that, what would be the purpose of the Debate board? Drunk
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 May, 2005 06:03 pm
extra medium wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
I am not as afraid of the words "I do not know" as you apparently are.


Hmmm....not sure about that. I do not know. I'll have to think about that. Twisted Evil

Actually, I think we may agree on more things than either of us cares to admit.


I am already convinced...on less than unambiguous evidence...that you are correct on this.


Quote:
But if we admitted that, what would be the purpose of the Debate board? Drunk


I quote to you from the book of Frank on this issue:

If balls are there to be broken...you must break them! Frank 5:12

Need I say more.


Oh...considering one of your remarks up above, you might be interested in this comment from Lola to me:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1314682#1314682
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