Is truth subjective or objective?

Damn, Fresco, if one doesn't benefit from that explication, esta completamente jodido.

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This is my favorite.

You see, wire telegraph is a kind of a very, very long cat. You pull his tail in New York and his head is meowing in Los Angeles. Do you understand this? And radio operates exactly the same way: you send signals here, they receive them there. The only difference is that there is no cat.

--Albert Einstein, when asked to describe radio.

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Yes, very funny. He was licenced to say such things.

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I liked his leonine hair.

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twyvel wrote:

Interesting conjecture. I keep wondering why you present it as knowledge and revelation.

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Frank, it's conjecture (if you insist on the word) "from the inside"(intuition, as it were) rather than guesses or intellectual deductions "from the outside". I agree, Frank, that intuition-as-knowledge may be problematical but no more so that deductions from axioms. Our axioms seem non-problematical because we cannot imagine them not being so. Mystical intuitions have the same subjective "certainty" built into them, and I do think they transcend our axioms. But--and I know how the following irritates you and Joe--one must have similar experiences to appreciate this point (whether or not it be true).

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JLNobody wrote:

Frank, it's conjecture (if you insist on the word) "from the inside"(intuition, as it were) rather than guesses or intellectual deductions "from the outside". I agree, Frank, that intuition-as-knowledge may be problematical but no more so that deductions from axioms. Our axioms seem non-problematical because we cannot imagine them not being so. Mystical intuitions have the same subjective "certainty" built into them, and I do think they transcend our axioms. But--and I know how the following irritates you and Joe--one must have similar experiences to appreciate this point (whether or not it be true).

Yeah...Christians say the same thing about their belief systesm...so I have compassion for you. I really do understand. Twisted Evil

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My last comment on this is that your certitude reminds me of that of my fundamentalist preacher brother. He's got a firewall about as thick as yours.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

People like Fresco, JL, Twyvel drive me nuts, though.

They have a straight-away to getting it...but prefer their guesses...so they avoid travelling the right road.

Frank, this is the part that I don't get:

Why do they drive you nuts? Why do you care so much what they spout?

I've read a lot of the various debates. Some of them I have an opinion in, some I don't.

Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I agree more with you.

But one thing I can say: they don't make comments like "Frank avoids traveling the right road."

Only you do that. You say that of others.

What makes you so certain that you know "the right road" and they (or anyone else) does not?

I agree: with comments like "they avoid traveling the right road" you are starting to sound like a religious fundamentalist or someone who has a special knowldedge of the "right road," and anyone who disagrees with you must be on the "wrong road." ??

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Frank you wrote:

Quote:

Interesting conjecture. I keep wondering why you present it as knowledge and revelation.

OUT

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Twyvel

Rather than get into all the stuff we've covered from beginning to end in other threads, I will concentrate on just one area of your last post.

You wrote:

Quote:

Several times you've made the statement:

"Truth is objective."

Are you presenting this as knowledge and revelation?

Are you suggesting that because I say one cannot rationally make definitive statements about the unknown...I am also suggesting that one cannot make definitive statements about anything????

That certainly is not the case, Twyvel.

Essentially, this entire argument about "truth" is in effect merely the presentation of a tautology.

Truth...is truth.

Those arguing that it is subjective...do so by constantly...and in my opinion, underhandedly...changing from "truth" to "perceptions of truth"...and then arguing that "perceptions of truth" (which they pretend to be "truth")...are subjective.

Well...Twyvel...OF COURSE PERCEPTIONS OF TRUTH are subjective. That is a given.

But TRUTH itself...that which is true; that which is the REALITY...IS OBJECTIVE.

I am not revealing anything in that statement.

I am simply saying that what is true...is true.

What is your problem with that?

Why are you suggesting that my saying "what is true...is true"...

...is somehow like you saying that REALITY is a nonduality thing?

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extra medium wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

People like Fresco, JL, Twyvel drive me nuts, though.

They have a straight-away to getting it...but prefer their guesses...so they avoid travelling the right road.

Frank, this is the part that I don't get:

Okay...let me try to help you with it.

Quote:

Why do they drive you nuts?

Look up the word "figuarative"...and apply it to this comment.

Quote:

Why do you care so much what they spout?

Sorry...I thought you realized that is what this forum was designed to do. Discuss matters like this...and have "caring" conversations.

Besides which, there is a four year history of discussion that spells out many of the reasons why I (and the others) consider this important.

(For me, it involves fighting beliefs systems of all kinds. I think the fate of humanity rests in the balance.)

Quote:

I've read a lot of the various debates. Some of them I have an opinion in, some I don't.

Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I agree more with you.

But one thing I can say: they don't make comments like "Frank avoids traveling the right road."

Only you do that. You say that of others.

What makes you so certain that you know "the right road" and they (or anyone else) does not?

BECAUSE I SEE THE RIGHT ROAD AS BEING THE "TRUTH"...and the truth is that I do not know the nature of REALITY...and strongly suspect that they do not either.

"The right road" is simply acknowledgement of what we do not know....and the honesty not to pretend we know what we do not know.

Quote:

I agree: with comments like "they avoid traveling the right road" you are starting to sound like a religious fundamentalist or someone who has a special knowldedge of the "right road," and anyone who disagrees with you must be on the "wrong road." ??

Re-read what I said...and you should be disuaded from that.

But if you would like to discuss it at length...I will (as most of these guys know) be willing to spend the next several months talking to you about it. If you would like to do so....perhaps it would be better to start a new thread devoted to "Frank and Extra Medium 'splain shyt to each other."

I'd enjoy it.

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I think that there is an objective reality but individual brains perceive and interpret it differently. Some distortions of Truth are due to organic problems with the brain and/or senses, some are due to cultural and experiential overlays that affect how we interpret information.

Truth is objective, beliefs about Truth are subjective.

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Terry....how ya been.

Very, very long time no see. MIssed ya.

I see our buddy Ican is still posting!

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Terry,

Nice to see you.

Define "problems", and "information" objectively please.

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Frank wrote:

Quote:

Several times you've made the statement:

"Truth is objective."

Are you presenting this as knowledge and revelation?

Quote:
Are you suggesting that because I say one cannot rationally make definitive statements about the unknown...I am also suggesting that one cannot make definitive statements about anything????

That certainly is not the case, Twyvel.

Quote:

Essentially, this entire argument about "truth" is in effect merely the presentation of a tautology.

Truth...is truth.

Yes, well we know that.

Quote:

Those arguing that it is subjective...do so by constantly...and in my opinion, underhandedly...changing from "truth" to "perceptions of truth"...and then arguing that "perceptions of truth" (which they pretend to be "truth")...are subjective.

Quote:

Well...Twyvel...OF COURSE PERCEPTIONS OF TRUTH are subjective. That is a given.

Right.

Quote:

But TRUTH itself...that which is true; that which is the REALITY...IS OBJECTIVE.

Here's your error.

Ontologically you cannot claim the above without knowing the Truth about the Subjective (some aspects). And You do not know that.

Quote:

I am not revealing anything in that statement.

I am simply saying that what is true...is true.

Quote:

Why are you suggesting that my saying "what is true...is true"...

...is somehow like you saying that REALITY is a nonduality thing?

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Yes, hi Terry, good to see you, Smile

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Tywvel, it's no fair to use steroids.
But I'd take them too if I could secrete what you've just secreted.

You're right: ultimately, reality, suchness, Brahma, God, whatever, is neither dualistic nor non-dualistic, neither two nor one. We can't really talk without contrasting them--since they define each other--which is why silence, or everyday unselfconscious behavior, is the only way to represent Suchness. Meditation is non-dualistic perception, a form of partially enlightened behavior, insofar as it is liberation from dualism, but its only a form of behavior, not suchness (versus not suchness, itself (except, of course, that everything is suchness). As the Heart Sutra's Supreme Mantra informs us, we must neither stay on this side of the shore (samsara/dualism) nor go to the other side (Nirvana/non-dualism); we must go beyond both where they equal each other, where all is really One (but not one vs. two)--I think THAT (?) is complete enlightenment.

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Is truth subjective or objective?

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