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Why Won't Democrats Fight

 
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 04:31 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
It is my opinion that liberals for the most will fight. But they have to be convinced the cause is just. Liberals fought as well as anyone in WWII, for instance. Sure, you can pick out a few exceptions, but you also have examples of conservatives not fighting, notably Cheney and George Bush.

In reality Edgar, I doubt that most of the younger members of the military have developed a true political philosophy at that young age. I, like you voted for Goldwater back then, only unlike you, I did re-up and stayed for twenty years.

It is interesting to me that liberalism is often equated with socialism and communism when the military is about as socialistic a lifestyle as you can get and still be a U.S. citizen. As a young man entering the military, I was given a place to live, the food to eat, clothes to wear. I was given pay based not on my job duties, knowledge or skill, but on length of service or military rank. I was expected to obey my superiors without question. Individualism was frowned upon; same clothing, hair cut, etc. Just why that type of lifestyle relates to the republican party is worth considering. Sheoples comes to mind, but that would be disrespectful to the military unless you understand that discipline and following orders without question is extremely important in wartime activity and is the major part of incoming indoctrination.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 04:42 pm
I get you, Mesquite. (And not all liberals want true socialism, just a more controlled form of capitalism.)
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 04:55 pm
Right Edgar, I still call myself an independent although the current brand of conservatism makes it ever harder to find a republican I can support. Here in AZ I am still partial to McCain and Kolbe. Both of them have been severely criticized by their own party.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 05:00 pm
Likewise, I find it hard to find Democrats I can truly feel comfortable with.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 05:04 pm
Parados and Joe... you certainly appear to know more about this stuff than I do. Since I no longer feel confident in my assessment, I withdraw it. I will point the thread out to the member who originally posted it and others who discussed it. Thank you.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 06:45 pm
According to The Democrats way-back-then, voting for Goldwater would mean we'd be in Vietnam inside a year. Well, I guess they were right; I did and we were.

That aside, "Why won't (insert whoever you wish to disparage here) fight?" is editorializing, nothing more nor less, and for that is borderline intellectual dishonesty. There is no answer to such a question; in and of itself the very "question" is tantamount to screed.

But without going further to that point, I do find amusing the ill-informed attempts of some here to discredit the Military Times Survey. That I would like to address.

Of course the survey done by The Military Times is "unscientific". It is presented as such, merely as a matter of interest, a sampling of the mood and attitude of those who chose to respond. As stated in the articles accompanying the survey, " ... Bush leads Democratic Sen. John Kerry 73 percent to 18 percent in the voluntary survey of 4,165 active-duty, National Guard and reserve subscribers to Army Times, Navy Times, Marine Corps Times and Air Force Times.

Though the results of the Military Times 2004 Election Survey are not representative of the opinions of the military as a whole, they are a disappointment to Democrats who hoped Kerry's record and doubts about Bush would give their candidate an opening in a traditionally Republican group with tremendous symbolic value in a closely contested election ...

... To conduct the survey, Military Times e-mailed more than 31,000 subscribers Sept. 15. They were invited to access an Internet site seeking their opinions on the presidential race and related issues. From Sept. 21 to 28, and before the first presidential debate on Sept. 30, a total of 2,754 active-duty and 1,411 reserve and Guard members took part ... "

Perhaps a message lies in the proportion of invitees who did in fact respond. A 13% response is somewhere between incredible and fantastic, but that's neither here nor there, really. There is no reason to assume anything other than that those who chose to respond tended to be more favorable to one political sentiment than to another.

One cannot say, however, that The Military Times Poll is UNREPRESENTATIVE of the political sentiment within the US Military, as The Annenberg Center for Public Policy recently completed a poll of military members and families which essentially validates the findings of the poll done by The Military Times.

Quote:
Annenberg: Military survey 3 to 1 for Bush

By Brian DeBose
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published October 16, 2004



Men and women in the military favor President Bush 3 to 1, according to a survey by the Annenberg Public Policy Center, despite reservations about troop strength and an exit strategy in Iraq.
A significant majority of those polled also believe the country is moving in the right direction and that Mr. Bush has better plan for success in Iraq than Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry.
Mr. Bush received a response of favorable from 69 percent of military personnel polled, compared with 29 percent for Mr. Kerry. Twenty-three percent viewed the president unfavorably, compared to Mr. Kerry's 54 percent.
Among National Guard and military Reserve members, the numbers were even higher for Mr. Bush, with 74 percent saying they favored the president, compared with Mr. Kerry's 26 percent.
"These are people who have chosen a way of life, they are proud of it. President Bush is their commander in chief and they believe in the mission," said Annenberg political director Adam Clymer.
When asked whether the country was moving in the right direction, 64 percent of enlisted members said yes, along with 69 percent of guard and reserve members.
"There are a lot of people who support President Bush but don't think the nation is moving in the right direction, but this is the sunniest outlook I've seen," Mr. Clymer said.
When asked who had a clear plan for success in Iraq, Mr. Kerry has work to do, with 72 percent saying he has no vision for the future in the war-torn country. Regarding Mr. Bush's plan, there was a near 50-50 split among respondents with 48 percent saying he had no clear plan and 47 percent saying he did.
Among guardsmen and reservists the numbers were similar, with 50 percent saying Mr. Bush did have a clear plan and 44 percent saying he did not, as opposed to 16 percent saying Mr. Kerry had a clear plan and 74 percent saying he did not.
Kerry campaign officials said they are not surprised to see Mr. Bush receiving high support from the military, and released several statements from military family members criticizing the administration for "failing to give [troops] the proper equipment."
Bush campaign officials said the Kerry camp's nervousness about military support for the president can be found in its perceived activities to limit the military vote.
Bush campaign manager Ken Mehlman said the Democrats have devised a clever strategy to complicate the election by waiting "until the last minute" to file suit to keep independent Ralph Nader off the ballot.
Mr. Mehlman said the late challenge keeps local election officials from printing ballots to send overseas to U.S. troops. Unless the ballots are sent out within the next few days, it is unlikely that members of the military serving in Iraq or Afghanistan could fill them out and get them back to the United States before Nov. 2.
"Here we go again," said former Sen. Bob Dole, Kansas Republican. "In 2000, Democrats tried to disenfranchise military voters in Florida; they tried to do it again in 2004 using the same cast of characters."
The Annenberg Center surveyed 655 active military personnel or their family members in the 48 intercontinental states between Sept. 22 and Oct. 5. Family members were also surveyed when the military personnel in the household serving were not available. The survey also compared the answers with those of National Guardsmen, reservists, family members and the general public.
The survey shows a definite difference between how military personal and the general public perceive the candidates. Recent national tracking polls have Mr. Bush even or leading Mr. Kerry by two or three percentage points, within the margins of error.
"This group is more likely to vote and more interested in the election than anyone else," Mr. Clymer said. "They are more Republican, but also military Republicans are more supportive of Bush than Republicans in general."
Mr. Bush received high marks in the areas of leadership, 72 percent to Mr. Kerry's 20 percent; common values, 64 percent to 28 percent; and optimism, 59 percent to 24 percent.
When asked whether the National Guard and reservists in Iraq were properly trained, 38 percent said yes and 42 percent said no. Asked if the Pentagon has overburdened the guard and reserve members, 59 percent said yes and 34 percent said no.
But a majority, 57 percent to 39 percent, said the Pentagon's orders for some soldiers to extend their service beyond their enlistment was proper; 73 percent said the troops should stay until a stable Iraqi government is in place. The same percentage opposed reinstatement of the draft.


By and large, The US Military, Officers and Rank-and-File alike, does not like what it perceives Kerry to be about.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 06:51 pm
The Military Times survey can agree with a scientific poll on a similar subject without, actually, being representative. If I happen to ask 2 white college students from a diverse group of 200 at the supermarket whether they prefer chocolate or vanilla ice cream, and one says "chocolate" and one says "vanilla", it is a methodologically flawed survey -- even if a more scientific poll later finds that 50% of the respondants prefer chocolate. It was luck that led me to asking those two rather than two who answered "chocolate" or two who answered "vanilla", not science.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 06:55 pm
Put me down for chocolate. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 07:29 pm
Quote:
An age-old stereotype is that the Democratic Party is the champion of the poor and the repressed, while the Republicans are the protectors of the rich and elitist. Another stereotype - this one with more validity - is that the American military is staffed by the poor and the poorly educated, the youthful unemployed and the inner city's underprivileged.


When I read this earlier, I thought, this guy not only believes in stereotypes as examples but also must be living in 1969. There was a time when there were a lot of poorly educated, youthful unemployed and inner city underprivileged in the military, I know, I served with a few of them, went to language school with a bunch of others and met some more at various posts and bases in those years. I was in the unique position of being an intelligence co-ordinator and a member of the traveling team for the USAF Worldwide Talent Show. We traveled (not worldwide Rolling Eyes ) throughout the US entertaining the troops for a couple of months a year, the rest of the time it was back to reading data.

Those were the days of the draft and the draft took whoever was unlucky or not paying attention. There were a lot of rough characters who slept through high school and not a few candidates for promotion to E2 who once had spent a few days drying out from a binge or, at the direction of a judge, signed up for two years to avoid being sent to the slammer for four. If a judge were to try that today, the Army would laugh up it's hash-marked sleeves at him and his selectee.

The US Military has been volunteer for over thirty years. It's members, still rough characters don't get me wrong, are smarter than their 1969 brothers by a factor of fifty. They are better educated, better read and able to think on their feet or on the seat of a tank than those guys of long ago. Their training has paid off. This present army, trained throughout the Clinton years, swept through Afghanistan like a knife and barely a few months later, roared across Iraq to the statue pulling-down ceremony.

The military is older too. Lots of front line folks in the thirties and forties, not all from the National Guard, a lot who have stayed in and re-upped their way to a twenty year career.

Of course, there are the usual amount of mis-fits, nutballs, gun freaks and wackos - the grinning crew in the Iraq prison pics and Timothy McVeigh come to mind, but by far the military member today is not anything like what the instigator of this thread implied, so "more validity" like hell.

As to how they vote, or say they will, I leave to them. I honor their service, I am sure they will do their duty under whomever is elected to the Presidency and I hope for their safe return to their families.

Joe Nation
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:13 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Of course the survey done by The Military Times is "unscientific". It is presented as such, merely as a matter of interest, a sampling of the mood and attitude of those who chose to respond. [..]

Though the results of the Military Times 2004 Election Survey are not representative of the opinions of the military as a whole, they are a disappointment to Democrats who hoped Kerry's record and doubts about Bush would give their candidate an opening in a traditionally Republican group

Odd internal contradiction in these sentences. "Of course" the Military Times survey is unscientific, you say, and representative of no more than the opinion of Military Times subscribers (or, more specifically, the 13% of those who responded). So - but - if these numbers can indeed not be said to be "representative of the opinions of the military as a whole", then why should they come as "a disappointment" to Democrats who hoped Kerry would get an opening there?

Parados earlier on mentioned that the Army Times is read more by "lifers" than by those who serve temporarily, and more by the higher brass than by rank-and-file soldiers. If such a group, which is likely to lean Republican even more than the military overall is, then is exhorted to express their opinion, you are bound to get a certain result. Parados is right - when a poll reflects merely what the most insistent-minded share of subscribers of a specifically slanted subscriber group thinks, then it can't seriously be quoted in claims about the military, overall.

Now I gotta add that I didnt really even get into this before, because the poll's results hadnt actually surprised me much. I for one wouldn't contest that the military is likely to support Bush - all I'm curious about is how the majority is going to compare with the one he pulled in 2000. But in the Bookie thread you said that your post provided an "answer to [Parados'] questions", and there I gotta disagree: it doesn't. It actually confirms his point: that the AT poll itself can't seriously be used as evidence of anything.

Now the Annenberg Survey, that's probably a different story ...
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:57 pm
Timberland writes:
Quote:
Of course the survey done by The Military Times is "unscientific". It is presented as such, merely as a matter of interest, a sampling of the mood and attitude of those who chose to respond. As stated in the articles accompanying the survey, " ... Bush leads Democratic Sen. John Kerry 73 percent to 18 percent in the voluntary survey of 4,165 active-duty, National Guard and reserve subscribers to Army Times, Navy Times, Marine Corps Times and Air Force Times.


Timber, perhaps you need to go back and look at the post that started this thread. Lusatian did NOT quote the study merely as a "matter of interest". He quoted it and then used it as a basis to claim that only 13% of the military was Democratic. It certainly looks to me and I think most people with a modicum of sense that Lusatian was attempting to extrapolate the study to the entire military. If you want to jump on the idiot wagon here, feel free. But any defense of Lusatain is the direct opposite of your claim

Lusatain's quote with relevent parts highlighted
Quote:
Why is it then that the armed forces are overwhelmingly Republican or right-leaning? A recent Army Times poll of 4,165 military members shows that only 13% are Democrats. 59% claim to be Republicans (down a bit from studies done earlier), and 20% are independants, of which over two-thirds support Bush.

If the Democrats are the champions of the poor and needy, and it is the poor and needy who end up serving in the military - not the rich and favored, how can it be that the Democratic Party does so miserably poor in elections where military votes are concerned. I have an idea or two on the whys and wherefores, but I'm sure I'm wrong.

Essentially, defending the country is done by Republicans, and a 13% upstanding individuals. Since the generall electorate is demarcated nearly 50-50 Republican/Democrat, but 87% of those fighting are not Democrat it should be fair to ask.


Are you really going to attempt to argue Timber that Lusatian didn't do what I accused him of? Please tell me how a survey of 4,169 readers of the Military Times can be made to mean that only 13% of the military are Democrats. You do realize that your Annenburg study says NOTHING about what % of the military is Democratic.

I never once said that the military was not mostly Republican. I only pointed out that you can NOT make that conclusion from this study in any scientific fashion. You are right in your statement that Lusitian's statement was screed but you then attempted to defend the indefensible by claiming he was in some way correct. Hate to tell you but there is NOTHING in his statement that can reasonably be called accurate.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 10:12 pm
parados wrote:
Hate to tell you but there is NOTHING in his statement that can reasonably be called accurate.


Au contraire, mon frere ...
For example, this portion of Lusatian's post
" ... A recent Army Times poll of 4,165 military members shows that only 13% are Democrats. 59% claim to be Republicans (down a bit from studies done earlier), and 20% are independants, of which over two-thirds support Bush ... " is precisely what the survey discloses of its respondents.

As for "What I'm attempting to do" here, well, I'm just pointing out that while not an academically valid, scientific survey, the Military Times report is congruent with a more rigorously structured study. I don't make any claim to KNOW what proportion of the US Military may belong to any particular party, but the available evidence (including the military absentee ballots recorded for any election in recent memory) forces one to conclude that among the Military Population, Democrats are substantially less well represented than are Republicans.
0 Replies
 
Joe Republican
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 11:02 pm
timberlandko wrote:
parados wrote:
Hate to tell you but there is NOTHING in his statement that can reasonably be called accurate.


Au contraire, mon frere ...
For example, this portion of Lusatian's post
" ... A recent Army Times poll of 4,165 military members shows that only 13% are Democrats. 59% claim to be Republicans (down a bit from studies done earlier), and 20% are independants, of which over two-thirds support Bush ... " is precisely what the survey discloses of its respondents.

As for "What I'm attempting to do" here, well, I'm just pointing out that while not an academically valid, scientific survey, the Military Times report is congruent with a more rigorously structured study. I don't make any claim to KNOW what proportion of the US Military may belong to any particular party, but the available evidence (including the military absentee ballots recorded for any election in recent memory) forces one to conclude that among the Military Population, Democrats are substantially less well represented than are Republicans.


Not meaning to butt in, but your missing the crux of the argument. Nobody was arguing the military doesn't have a majority of republicans, go back and read the rebuttals. What we were saying is exactly what Parados said.

The initial point of the post was to extrapolate a survey by the Army times across the whole military. We were just pointing out that this methodology was false in its premise because it fails to take a representative sample.

A good example of this was the elections of 1936. The Literary Digest predicted an Alf Landon victory in a landslide. Gallop predicted a Roosevelt win. Well, the magazine had 2million subscribers, but they never got a representative sampling of the nation because their subscribers were of only a few demographics. Gallop instead used statistics to extrapolate the winner, and used very small samplings across a wide variety of demographics. Gallop won and Literary Digest had to eat crow.

The point being made was that the methodology used to collect the data was flawed, so you couldn't use it as a representative population for analysis. This is what Lusatian tried to do with the post. We were just showing why this was not a correct way to look at the problem.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 07:44 am
Timberlandko writes:
Au contraire, mon frere ...
Quote:
For example, this portion of Lusatian's post
" ... A recent Army Times poll of 4,165 military members shows that only 13% are Democrats. 59% claim to be Republicans (down a bit from studies done earlier), and 20% are independants, of which over two-thirds support Bush ... " is precisely what the survey discloses of its respondents.

As for "What I'm attempting to do" here, well, I'm just pointing out that while not an academically valid, scientific survey, the Military Times report is congruent with a more rigorously structured study. I don't make any claim to KNOW what proportion of the US Military may belong to any particular party, but the available evidence (including the military absentee ballots recorded for any election in recent memory) forces one to conclude that among the Military Population, Democrats are substantially less well represented than are Republicans.


Let me point out the innaccuracies in the statement you claim is TRUE. First Lusatain calls it a "poll of 4,165 military members." It is NOT a poll. It was a SURVEY and was stated as such by the Military Times. Secondly, the statement says it polled "military members" which is misleading as to the actual respondents in the "poll".

An example that should be easy for you to understand. I survey 100 women in an OBGYN's office and 50% of them are pregnant. If I then state that a "poll of 100 people" found that "50% of people" are pregnant would you accept that as an accurate statement? (I only substituted the word poll for survey and accurately described women as people. I think we can all agree that women are people.)

The final point is that YOU had to fill in the word "respondents" to try to make the statement MORE accurate. As I pointed out in my earlier post, (see the two red highlighted points) Lusatain is purposely vague about limiting the "poll" to only respondents and then uses his vague statement to make the large leap to his conclusion that only 13% of the military are democrats. I don't think there can be any question of his intent to mislead in the statement you claim is accurate. One needs only examine it precisely for verbage and then see it in context of how he uses it to build his house of cards.

Again Timber, you are tilting at windmills in your defense of the indefensible. Brave attempt, but it only makes me wish your Sancho would pick you up, dust you off, and point you in a safer direction. I understand your point of the military being more republican than it is democratic. I agree with that. But to defend Lusatain's tactics is similar to defending Dahmer's food choice as an Atkins healthy diet. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Lusatian
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 05:53 pm
Lack of time, due to Afghanistan preparation, forces me to keep this short. Therefore, I will respond in brief to parados' harangue. For starters Parados, since you present absolutely no data to contradict the point of my topic I have to believe that your contentious personality is the only thing being satisfied by your disagreement. I never claimed that the poll was scientific, however the abscence of any data to support your opinions (scientific or otherwise) leaves little basis for any contrary contention.

If you are trying to say that there is more support for Democratic candidates than I have indicated I cordially invite you to bring evidence, scientific or otherwise, to support such a notion. In the abscence of an unassailable study into the military's partisan preferences greatest credence must be placed on the available data. Data that would repudiate what I have suggested will be incredibly hard to find, something that leaves me rather amused at your vehement rants.

Although, to oblige your childish en garde you may want to check the results of the National Annenberg Election Survey that gives President Bush a 3-1 lead over Pretender Kerry. Hardly different from the poll I originally indicated. (Hem and haw over those results to your heart's content).

That these studies have imperfections I have no doubt, but that can be said with nearly all polling. The nature of the science is fickle even when best employed. Since you surely will compose a passionate, long-winded, and pretentious response, please allow me to offer the chance of a counter challenge.

If you can prove that the military vote in national elections has gone Democratic more than a third of the time overall, I will immediately concede that you may be right in this matter. If you cannot I invite you to bring whatever you can find.

Best of luck Parados. Laughing

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/15/military.poll.ap/
Link to help you out. :wink: Not sure asinine analogies will help here.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 08:00 pm
Here's a more relevant list of facts that belies the conclusion of those who have served and/or fought:


Democrats:


* Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.

* David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.

* Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.

* Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.

* Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.

* Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.

* John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.

* Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

* Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam.

* Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.

* Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968- 74.

* Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.

* Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.

* Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and Soldier's Medal.

* Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.

* Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.

* Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.

* Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.

* Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57

* Chuck Robb: Vietnam

* Howell Heflin: Silver Star

* George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII.

* Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311.

* Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.

* Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953

* John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.

* Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.



Republicans:

* Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.

* Dennis Hastert: did not serve.

* Tom Delay: did not serve.

* Roy Blunt: did not serve.

* Bill Frist: did not serve.

* Mitch McConnell: did not serve.

* Rick Santorum: did not serve.

* Trent Lott: did not serve.

* John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.

* Jeb Bush: did not serve.

* Karl Rove: did not serve.

* Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. "Bad knee." The man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism.

* Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.

* Vin Weber: did not serve.

* Richard Perle: did not serve.

* Douglas Feith: did not serve.

* Eliot Abrams: did not serve.

* Richard Shelby: did not serve.

* Jon! Kyl: did not serve.

* Tim Hutchison: did not serve.

* Christopher Cox: did not serve.

* Newt Gingrich: did not serve.

* Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.

* George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty.

* Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non- combat role making movies.

* B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.

* Phil Gramm: did not serve.

* John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

* Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.

* John M. McHugh: did not serve.

* JC Watts: did not serve.

* Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years.

* Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.

* Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.

* George Pataki: did not serve.

* Spencer Abraham: did not serve.

* John Engler: did not serve.

* Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.

* Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.



Pundits & Preachers
* Sean Hannity: did not serve.

* Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a 'pilonidal cyst.')

* Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.

* Michael Savage: did not serve.

* George Will: did not serve.

* Paul Gigot: did not serve.

* Bill Bennett: did not serve.

* Pat Buchanan: did not serve.

* Bill Kristol: did not serve.

* Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

* Antonin Scalia: did not serve.

* Clarence Thomas: did not serve.

* Ralph Reed: did not serve.

* Michael Medved: did not serve.

* Charlie Daniels: did not serve.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 08:39 pm
Gee, LV. I'm sure the ommision of the following was just an oversight on your part. Right? Smile

Former Senator Bob Dole - http://www.bobdole.org/bio/wwII.php

Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam -- http://www.senate.gov/~hagel/Information/bio.htm

Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart, and several other decorations http://www.house.gov/cunningham/about_duke.htm#Biography

Senator Jeff Sessions U.S. Army Reserves, 1973-1986

Colin Powell -- definitely served

Representative Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD), served in USMC in Vietnam; wounded in action.

Senator Thad Cochran -- served in the Navy

George Herbert Walker Bush, pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese; was lone survivor out of airplane.

Tom Ridge, Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam

Representative Sam R. Johnson, combat missions in both Korea and Vietnam, POW in Hanoi from April 1966 to February 1973

Senator Ted Stevens, R-AK, WW II pilot, two Distinguished Flying Crosses, two Air Medals, and the Yuan Hai medal awarded by the Republic of China.

Sen. John Warner, R-VA - Served in the Navy during WWII as a RM3

Congresswoman Heather Wilson, R-NM, served in the Air Force 1978-1989

Former President Gerald Ford, served in the Navy, WWII
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 10:00 pm
Lusatain writes:
Quote:
Lack of time, due to Afghanistan preparation, forces me to keep this short. Therefore, I will respond in brief to parados' harangue. For starters Parados, since you present absolutely no data to contradict the point of my topic I have to believe that your contentious personality is the only thing being satisfied by your disagreement. I never claimed that the poll was scientific, however the abscence of any data to support your opinions (scientific or otherwise) leaves little basis for any contrary contention.

If you are trying to say that there is more support for Democratic candidates than I have indicated I cordially invite you to bring evidence, scientific or otherwise, to support such a notion. In the abscence of an unassailable study into the military's partisan preferences greatest credence must be placed on the available data. Data that would repudiate what I have suggested will be incredibly hard to find, something that leaves me rather amused at your vehement rants.

Although, to oblige your childish en garde you may want to check the results of the National Annenberg Election Survey that gives President Bush a 3-1 lead over Pretender Kerry. Hardly different from the poll I originally indicated. (Hem and haw over those results to your heart's content).

That these studies have imperfections I have no doubt, but that can be said with nearly all polling. The nature of the science is fickle even when best employed. Since you surely will compose a passionate, long-winded, and pretentious response, please allow me to offer the chance of a counter challenge.

If you can prove that the military vote in national elections has gone Democratic more than a third of the time overall, I will immediately concede that you may be right in this matter. If you cannot I invite you to bring whatever you can find.

Best of luck Parados.


No data to contradict your point? What the hell was your point? Are you now claiming your point was NOT to state that only 13% of the military is democratic? Hell, the Annenburg study pretty much destroys your point since it shows 19% are Democrat and only 43% are Republican. A figure 150% off is NOT an accurate one by any stretch of the imagination. Data that supports your statement is a hell of a lot harder to find than any that supports mine. First of all I never claimed that more than 50% of the military was democratic. I am not that stupid. I prefer to stick to KNOWN facts that can be shown. You seem to prefer to make conclusions that a child of 6 should realize can't be concluded.

Now, lets examine the Annenburg study in light of your claims. Only 43% of the military in that study claims to be Republican. That means that 57% of them are NOT. So to echo your idiotic claim.

Since the generall[sic] electorate is demarcated nearly 50-50 Republican/Democrat, but 57% of those fighting are not Republican it should be fair to ask.

Why Won't the Republicans Fight?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 09:16 am
It's obvious how survey's, polls and lists can come up with erroneous conclusions which was the reasons I posted yet another list, with the addendum by JustWonders on the defensive.

Where's the survey's of the military other than the Army Times? Are there more Democrats than Republicans in the Air Force, for example? This thread's silly premise is simply flame baiting nonsense. For instance, it could also be interpreted as more Democrats go onto higher education or join other branches of the military than the Army.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 09:50 am
JustWonders,

I noted this on other thread, but here it is even more striking.

Your use of a Thoreau quote is wonderfully ironic.
0 Replies
 
 

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