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Bush, Kyoto, and the Environment

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 08:32 am
Thomas wrote:

In addition to that, I seem to remember that at least here in Germany, a large fraction of the cost of building a nuclear power plant arose because every plant was treated as unique. Hence, each plant needed an expensive certification process to make sure it complied with the relevant regulations. The French solved this problem by having one standardized reactor type (or very few), certifying it once, and building copies of the standard over and over again. All those standardized plants were built with the blessing of the original certification. The costs thus saved allowed France to satisfy a huge part of its electrical energy needs with nuclear power . (I think 80%.) I'm not sure how much of a problem this was in the USA, and how much of the cost the French solution would save here. But I guess it could be pretty substantial.


You are correct. The U.S. pursued the same uncoordinated approach as you describe in Germany in designing and licensing our 103 Nuclear plants. The first company I ran provided consulting engineering services to the nuclear utility industry. We made lots of money verifying standards compliance in 10 distinct nuclear plant designs for one major utility alone. Very wasteful. This is one area in which the French took a much superior approach from the start (very much in keeping with their authoritarian ways). They standardized both plant design and the training & qualification of the operators. In the states we have central control of only fuel manufacture.

A unique individual, Admiral Hyman Rickover (now dead) controlled our Navy powerplants in a similar way to the French, for the first twenty-five years. He was an intolerant and demanding autocrat who controlled every aspect of plant design and the selection and training of everyone involved in operating them - up to the Captains of the ships who themselves had to qualify as nuclear engineers. He was very demanding and hard to love, but utterly competent and farsighted. (It is likely the French copied his approach, as we had been operating these plants for about 10 years before they started.) The Navy plants are designed for high power density and long operating periods between refueling (45 years in the latest plants) . They are rugged, elegantly simple in design, and extremely reliable. Truly amazing things.

We used good shielding and, unlike the Russians, had good radiological and quality controls. The highest radiation doses on a carrier are received by the pilots in the air wing, who spend lots of time above 20,000 ft. altitude - and not by the nuclear plant operators (I. verified this myself). The submarine folks claim that the average sailor on a patrol receives a lower dose on the ship while submerged (and shielded from cosmic radiation) than he does ashore and at home.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 09:04 am
George,

since you are clearly better informed about nuclear energy than I am, could you perhaps enlighten me on the following point? When I discuss nuclear power with environmentalists, one inevitable conversation pattern that emerges goes like this: I say that "nuclear power plants don't emit any pollutants during normal operation, so that's an environmental reason to support them". The environmentalist replies: "Maybe so, but you have to look at the whole process of building the plant and tearing it down after it reached the end of its life. These processes are not emission free, so your point doesn't hold." My response: "Maybe not, but are you sure these emissions are larger than when you build and tear down coal, oil, and gas plants? But even if they are, I'd be surprised if this changed the whole-life balance between the different types of power plant." At this point, we usually change the subject because neither side has the data to tell either way. Do you? And if so, can you tell me how total lifetime emissions compare between the different types of power plant?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 09:14 am
This seems to be the article I remembered -- it doesn't go into the cap and trade specifics that I remember, though, so that may have been another source.

Interesting article.

http://www.environmentalintegrity.org/pubs/Changing_All_the_Rules.htm

The cap-and-trade part (with some context on either side):

Quote:
The Energy Department took an unusually active role in drawing up the proposed new-source review changes. In November 2001, D.O.E. officials circulated their proposed changes among the E.P.A. staff for feedback. Officials at the E.P.A.'s air-enforcement division were appalled. ''The current draft report is highly biased and loaded with emotionally charged code words,'' E.P.A. officials wrote in an internal memo. ''It is drafted as a prelude to recommendations to vitiate the N.S.R. program.'' The agency's memo noted that the report ''contains only comments by industry and ignores the comments of all other stakeholders.''


In January 2002, the White House suffered a setback. The Justice Department delivered its report on the legality of the E.P.A.'s lawsuit against the Southern Company and other N.S.R. violators. The department found that contrary to the administration's hopes, all of the lawsuits were legal and warranted. In fact, Justice's lawyers said they intended to prosecute the cases ''vigorously.''


Shortly thereafter, White House officials decided it was time to try the Congressional track. On Feb. 14, 2002, President Bush unveiled his Clear Skies Initiative. The president declared that his proposed legislation ''sets tough new standards to dramatically reduce the three most significant forms of pollution from power plants -- sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides and mercury.''


It was true that the new standards, if enforced, would reduce emissions from their current rate -- but the president's formulation was somewhat misleading. Clear Skies was to replace Clean Air Act regulations with a cap-and-trade market system. On its face, that was not an unreasonable proposition. Many Republicans and some moderate Democrats embrace the general concept of cap-and-trade, in which Washington sets pollution standards for the entire country (the ''cap'') and then allows companies that manage to reduce their emissions below the standard to sell their extra pollution ''allowance'' to companies that haven't met the standard (the ''trade''). The key to cap-and-trade lies in the standard -- how low it is set and how quickly it shrinks. And when President Bush announced Clear Skies, the E.P.A. was already on track to require deeper reductions in air pollution than his cap-and-trade proposal would produce. So the air would actually be dirtier under Clear Skies than if the president allowed the E.P.A. to enforce the existing law. Clear Skies allowed 50 percent more sulfur dioxide, nearly 40 percent more nitrogen oxides and three times as much mercury as the Clean Air Act -- rigorously enforced -- called for.


Because of this discrepancy, the legislation was not greeted with much enthusiasm in Congress. Clear Skies wasn't helped by the fact that a former top E.P.A. official went on ABC's ''This Week'' to denounce the proposal two weeks after it was introduced. ''We can do better under current law than what they're putting on the table,'' Eric Schaeffer told George Stephanopoulos. Schaeffer, the E.P.A.'s head of civil enforcement from 1997 to 2002, had worked on the new-source review lawsuits since their inception. He left the E.P.A. in early 2002, tired, as he said in his letter of resignation, of ''fighting a White House that seems determined to weaken the rules we are trying to enforce.''
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 09:34 am
sozobe wrote:
The key to cap-and-trade lies in the standard -- how low it is set and how quickly it shrinks. And when President Bush announced Clear Skies, the E.P.A. was already on track to require deeper reductions in air pollution than his cap-and-trade proposal would produce. So the air would actually be dirtier under Clear Skies than if the president allowed the E.P.A. to enforce the existing law. Clear Skies allowed 50 percent more sulfur dioxide, nearly 40 percent more nitrogen oxides and three times as much mercury as the Clean Air Act -- rigorously enforced -- called for.

Sounds familiar -- it looks like the environmental version of the 'no child left behind' scenario. Pass a decent piece of legislation, take credit for it, then pull its teeth in the execution phase. Just like they killed the fairly decent 'no child left behind' act by not funding it adequatly, they killed the just as decent cap-and-trade principle by insufficient capping. There might even be a persuasive Republican case somewhere that the EPA's regulatios are capping emissions too much, and that it's a good idea to raise the caps. But cases like these are controversial and complicated to make, so they never get made even if they exist. <sigh>
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 11:04 am
Thomas wrote:
George,

since you are clearly better informed about nuclear energy than I am, could you perhaps enlighten me on the following point? When I discuss nuclear power with environmentalists, one inevitable conversation pattern that emerges goes like this: I say that "nuclear power plants don't emit any pollutants during normal operation, so that's an environmental reason to support them". The environmentalist replies: "Maybe so, but you have to look at the whole process of building the plant and tearing it down after it reached the end of its life. These processes are not emission free, so your point doesn't hold." My response: "Maybe not, but are you sure these emissions are larger than when you build and tear down coal, oil, and gas plants? But even if they are, I'd be surprised if this changed the whole-life balance between the different types of power plant." At this point, we usually change the subject because neither side has the data to tell either way. Do you? And if so, can you tell me how total lifetime emissions compare between the different types of power plant?


Well-posed questions, and very insightful. I advise you to continue to rely on your intuition and powers of analysis.

A nuclear power plant is identical to a coal or gas fired plant of the same electrical capacity in many respects.
Both will have the same steam systems , turbines, and electrical transmission systems.
Both will have similar cooling water systems for removal of the waste heat from the steam condensers. The nuclear plant will need more cooling water because it discharges about 50% more heat at low temperatures (approx. 60 deg C) per unit of electrical power produced. (This heat can be captured and used to distill fresh water or many other uses).

Instead of a coal yard or gas line and fuel-fired boilers, the Nuclear plant will have a containment building which houses the reactor, coolant pumps, ion exchangers, and pressurizer - all for the closed circuit, high pressure primary coolant system, plus a heat exchanger (or "steam generator") in which heat is transferred from the high pressure primary coolant to the lower pressure steam system. The primary differential impact is here.

The environmental effect of the manufacture of the added high strength vessels and piping for the nuclear plant is small in that it is (1) but an incremental difference in what are already large industrial facilities; and (2) only done once and lasts the 50-year life of the plant. The same observation can be made for the eventual disassembly and teardown of the plants. (Excluding the disposition of the spent nuclear fuel).

The environmental effect of the coal storage facility and the associated mining and transport of the coal is usually left out of the analysis by environmentalists for self-serving reasons. Loose coal adds particulate to the atmosphere and evolves a good deal of CO2 just while it sits there, not to mention the mining and transport. Gas is better, but consider also that methane is about 27 times as potent a greenhouse gas as CO2 and visualuize the leakage from all those miles of pipelines.

The biggest negative for Nuclear plants is the mining, processing, manufacture, and disposal of the nuclear fuel. Presumably this should compare to the coal/gas cycle noted above. The mining and transport of uranium ore is hardly different than many other minerals and materials commonly used. The processing for enrichment and disposal of spent nuclear fuel does have a significant impact, mostly associated with (1) disposal of spent fuel; and (2) the construction & operation of the associated industrial plant. Assuming you believe that safe solutions can be found for the disposition of the spent fuel and related high-level waste (this is mostly an emotional issue) the environmental impact of the nuclear fuel cycle is less than that for coal (on either a human health risk or economic cost basis). Much depends on whether or not you suscribe to the hyperbole that often surrounds these subjects. Uranium enrichment involves substantial use of fluorine - uranium hexafluoride is the medium commonly used in the process. It is a very corrosive gas, and, of course the fluorine is a very reactive (but ubiquitous) chemical. However these issues are no more significant or difficult to manage than hundreds of like industrial processes. It is also important to consider the differences in volume & mass of the fuel required. Fewer than 1000Kg of nuclear fuel (a mixture of U-235 and other materials) will power an aircraft carrier for its entire 50 year life. A conventionally powered carrier will consume about 1,400 times that mass of petroleum every day!

The U.S. government has heavily taxed nuclear plant operators for the last twenty-five years for the construction of the waste depository, which it has still not opened. ( the operators must also pay for "temporary" storage) In addition plant operators are required to set aside financial reserves to in effect bond the costs of end-of-life plant demolition. No such concurrent costs are imposed on operators of fossil-fueledA plants. Despite this today most nuclear plants in the U.S. produce power at an lower unit cost than their fossil fuel counterparts. Most utilities operate their nuclear plants at 95+ percent capacity for base load and cycle their fossil fuel plants for diurnal load cycles (generally gas turbine plants are used to meet peak power requirements).

Finally a nuclear plant will operate throughout its life emitting zero SO2, zero NOX, zero particulate and zero CO2 into the atmosphere.

Forgive me if I went on too long. I can spit this stuff out almost as well as you do economics. (Reminds me - please go back to the Friedman avatar!)
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 11:12 am
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall a Scientific American piece a few years ago which stated that the burning of Coal in America as a fuel source releases something like 4 million tons of uranium and other radioactives (which are found in coal, just in very low levels) into the atmosphere each year.

Scary stuff, coal. I've been a proponent of nuclear for a long time.

Cycloptichorn
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 11:24 am
Wow Georgeob1, that was impressive... and you couldn't talk "too long" about it. Thanks for the lesson!
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 11:57 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall a Scientific American piece a few years ago which stated that the burning of Coal in America as a fuel source releases something like 4 million tons of uranium and other radioactives (which are found in coal, just in very low levels) into the atmosphere each year.

Scary stuff, coal. I've been a proponent of nuclear for a long time.

Cycloptichorn


You are correct. I don't know about the mass of various radioactive isotopes released but have read many times that the public dose from burning coal (and petroleum) is far greater than that from nuclear power plants,

What is often forgotten in all this is that the earth, the food you eat, the air you breathe, and the flesh in your body are all detectably radioactive. The hell of it is that radiation can be cheaply detected in far smaller quantities than anything else.

Medical treatment still contributes a larger share of the public radiation dose than does any of the industrial processes we have been discussing. It is worth notiong though that all of these are dwarfed by what we get naturally from the sun and naturally occurring radioactive elements in the earth and atmosphere. The average inhabitant of Denver CO gets a larger natural dose than the total dose allowed for a nuclear plant operator in Virginia, due only to elevation and (to a much lesser extent) proximity to the minerals in the mountains.

Nuclear plants do involve deadly levels of radiation, but they can be reliably managed. Conceptually it is no different than staying out of the fire in a coal fired boiler.

The U.S. has lots of high quality coal and gets 50% of our electrical power from it. Generally it has half of the sulfur and twice the heating value of the lower grades of coal formerly (for the most part) used in Europe. Part of the way the Europeans snookered Al Gore at Kyoto was that they set the reference year against which reductions would be measured back to just before they had wholesale replacement of old coal fired plants with newer, more efficient gas fired ones. They, in effect, had already met their committment.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 01:25 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Forgive me if I went on too long.

Nothing to forgive at all -- this is exactly the explanation I wanted to hear!

georgeob1 wrote:
I can spit this stuff out almost as well as you do economics. (Reminds me - please go back to the Friedman avatar!)

Thank you, and healp is awn the way about the avatar. I decided to change to a more libertarian thinker as soon as George W. Bush is voted out of office. (Probably Madison or Jefferson. I'm currently reading up on the American revolution, and these are two men I find enormously impressive.) So hang in there, it's only four more weeks! Cool

georgeob1 wrote:
Part of the way the Europeans snookered Al Gore at Kyoto was that they set the reference year against which reductions would be measured back to just before they had wholesale replacement of old coal fired plants with newer, more efficient gas fired ones. They, in effect, had already met their committment.

... not to mention my own country, for which the date was set just before the extremely dirty and inefficient brown coal plants of East Germany went offline. I think Germany is easily the world champion in reducing emissions, just by clever definition of the starting time.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Oct, 2004 02:01 pm
Thomas wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Thank you, and healp is awn the way about the avatar. I decided to change to a more libertarian thinker as soon as George W. Bush is voted out of office. (Probably Madison or Jefferson. I'm currently reading up on the American revolution, and these are two men I find enormously impressive.) So hang in there, it's only four more weeks! Cool


Can't help but put your finger in my eye can you!

Don't wait four more years to make the change!

When you do, think hard about Madison. Jefferson fades a bit when you get closer to him in the historical record. Madison, on the other hand grows in stature. (Well he should - he was a very short man). Historians also often overlook Washington. I think men of letters tend to value like contributions more highly than those done in the real world by men of action. At the end of the revolutionary war Washington could easily have made himself a dictator, the Articles of Confederation and the new Constitution notwithstanding. Instead he cultivated the Congress and the Court, in effect lending his hard-won prestige to the new institutions making a reality out of what until then was just words on paper. He also took on Virginia and other states in the first issues that arose between them and the new Federal Government.

Germany is no more adept or inclined to fake achievements than any other country, the U.S. included. (If Al Gore wasn't so shallow and preoccupied with himself we would have gladly snookered Europe in the negotiations.) In fact, in comparison to France, I overflow with affection for Germany.
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