LOST & MISPLACED A2K people.

The joke is not against meat, it's against people who self-identify as mindless puppets, but still think what they say makes sense, for some reason. And yet, puppets don't usually make much sense on their own.

In other words, the joke points to the logical contradiction of using one's agency to try and prove that there is no such thing as agency.

Oh I get that joke.
The joke I’m talking about is that agency happens by accident or 'is emergent' if you want to sound scientific.

And where do you think agency comes from?

One can’t say based on observation alone, but the source obviously had design chops way beyond ours. No amount of hand waving can conceal that basic fact.

And where does "the source" come from? Did it "emerge"?

My point is: if you explain the existence of agency in humans by one big agent in the sky having designed it, you haven't solved the question of "where agency comes from".

layman didnt do his homework fully enough. He got so far and then assumed he was able to BS folks by cherry picking and quote minig. His understanding of "neutral theory" in genetics was using quotes from several Christian "scientific" organizations yet he professed to be agnostic (he wasnt bitterly agnostic like Quahog though).

.

The guy lacked a scientific education and he resented those who got one. This lead him to a contrarian attitude to pretty much any scientific theory currently accepted: relativity, evolution, climate change, you name it. Sour grapes and all that.

Edit: it also means that he lacked the basic concepts necessary to understand the stuff he was talking about. I remember once I had to explain to him that in mechanics, "accelerated" means something broader than in common English, ie turning or even slowing down are forms of acceleration in physics.

When people don't grasp basic scientific concepts and are in a contrarian state of mind to boot, you can't really get through to them. You can't explain them anything.

And how would you ever find that out if you start out by denying/ignoring its existence?

Aren’t you science worshipers supposed to be big on the 'IDK, lets find out' approach?

And at this point I declare layman the champ. Never seen a 'hate on A2Ker X’ even half as long as this before, without the MFer even be'n there!

@Olivier: biggest laugh I got was your claim to know the guy (in any way).

Where's Beth and Set? Are they well? Hope so

Setanta's been posting today or at least lurking.

ehbeth posted on Sunday.

Much obliged bobsal. I've been scrolling here and there for the last week or two...haven't seen either of them.

Just thought to check profiles my own self

I don't deny the existence of gods. It's just that I never saw one.

This said, the idea of a personal god -- an agent with a will, a sense of right and wrong, and a capacity to solve problems -- is too anthropocentric for my taste. "God created Man after His image, and Man returned the favor in spades".

Even the idea of design is odd to me: it's not like the world was created in a short period of time, eg 6 days at start, and then never changed, like an engineer would desicn a car and let it roll. Rather, if there is a designer god, it looks like he is forever creating and designing. New viruses appear all the time for instance.

In my most spiritual moments I'm more tempted by Spinoza: God is the universe unfolding in a continuous creation process. Or by Chardin: God is evolution, emerging from inert matter throught trial and error and creating sapience, morality and art along the way. Or by Bergson/Lucas: a "force" or "élan vital" permeates all living creatures and nudges evolution along. Pure conjectures of course, but they attract me more than the big designer in the sky.

As for the gods of the Bible, they are too many, too petty often, and much too similar to us humans.

Then I guess you don’t believe in electrons, atoms, etc. If your reasoning is consistent that is.

Do you like your women loose, helpless and stupid too, or is it just your God?

Hey, I don't deny the existence of atoms either.

Do you always behave as an asshole when you lose an argument, or is it just with me?

Get your own topic, guys.

Oh! You thought we were arguing.

The boss said to move along, so, happy trails.

Yes!

This thread got started in 2004, if you scanned back a few pages or read some of the early remarks it would very clear that grumbling about each other has been around since the early days. I don't think anyone hates layman, but I do think he would be thrilled if he thought he was irritating the others.