What do you think the dutch people are?

"pretty avatar"- yeah, very nice.

I think the Dutch people are a people who can't be expected to understand what it's like to grow up in a culture QUITE like theirs - and then be granted the privlege of living in a country NOT like theirs.

Dutch people who live in other countries, however, DO know what this is like ... but then ... can they realistically speak for the people who are still in their country? I think that's difficult.

When I was in macedonia ... spoke with someone - no - I had LEFT macedonia - spoke with someone who said, "You know, these people - they just give up ad leave their country - don't work on the problems at home ..."

Is that why everyone's leaving holland?

Lekker gezellig voor mij, in ieder geval.

Holland's a place with problems - just like palastine, romania ... et al.

I don't, in ieder geval, appreciate the ads for hotels in romania and macedonia that have appeared as links in my post. that's not mine.

I've got one! <s>

Dutch people share because someone needs something, and because it's polite. NOT because they get some inherent joy out of sharing. This is culturally different than Americans.

They also share because they want something, and they know that sharing is a fair way to be able to expect what you want. Americans have this, too.

But back to my first point:

Dutch people don't tend to OFFER, if you need something, and you're sitting there, and it's obvious you don't have something that's necessary, at the moment - and they're holding it in their hand. You have to ask for it.

This was once explained to me as the Dutch impulse to let people live their own lives, not get into their freedom, blah blah blah. And that's true, on one level.

On another level, I think they simply didn't learn - when they were children - that it FEELS GOOD to share. Like masturbation.

I was raised an only child. (My sister was born when I was 11) I was not taught to share "properly". I also come from a welfare home, and my mom was a drug addict, so I was raised with survival first on my list, kinda. So I have problems with sharing.

But when I HAVE something - and it's been a while since I've had this experience, kinda - although I did share my last bicycle - the one I bought myself at the bike shop! - with some little hoodlum in my best friend's neighborhood a couple days ago. Goddamnit. Where was I? When I HAVE stuff, it goes like water, because I can't wait to give it away. (Which means, in the end, I'm NOT the smartest person to be sharing your resources with, I guess!)

There'sa point that makes sense here - a real, valid conclusion about Dutch psychology.

I just can't dig it out of the mud ...

<smiles>

but for the low-down on dutch dialects ... I found this map ...

http://www.meertens.nl/projecten/sprekende_kaart/svg/

ok, I just thought it was cute ...

every time I hear that song, I cry, by the way.

Ah, them Dutch. I wrote a gazillion of entries in my blog [Edit: Moderator: call to action removed] about these cheese heads. I still do up to now. I live with them in this small, flat, dreary, wet and windy land and it is indeed a great challenge to co-exist with these creatures.

This is true, I think. People in the Netherlands, when they see someone in need of help, will wait a while, hoping someone else will help that person. When no one does so, then he or she will step in to help, because he or she feels obligated to help, not because they like it so much.

E.g., it is/was customary in public transportation to give up your seat for senior citizens, pregnant women or the partly disabled. Now people still give up their seats, but will wait a few seconds first just to see if someone else will give up his or her seat. Because sitting in a trolley is very comfortable, standing in a trolley, however, isn't!

In conclusion, Arji is right. The Dutch will help, but not because they want to be a helper, but because they don't want to be a non-helper. They want to be comfortable themselves, so initially they won't help you when helping means giving up comfort. However, when they start feeling like the jerks their behavior leads them to be, they start to feel uncomfortable. When this occurs, then helping is actually nothing more than swapping inconveniences.

Which the Dutch are more than happy to do ...





Now, I actually don't have a clue whether this is Dutch, or human behavior, and of course not all Dutch people will only help when he or she is just swapping inconveniences, some of them, not many, actually like to help. And others won't even feel uncomfortable when he (or she) is sitting comfortably while next to him (or her) a disabled, 90 year old pregnant woman is standing uncomfortably ...

Or, maybe it's just me and maybe I am just projecting this onto others. I'm Dutch, and I'll help you when it's needed, but not because I'm this cheerful idiot, smiling an' singing all day, helping people whenever I can, just for fun. No, I'll help you because you need help, that's it, quit whining about it!

They do that here (in Hungary) too...

Strange, I did not understand WHAT WAS edited in my post when I didn't even post a link?

I personally think the Dutch people are VERY independent and private individuals. They can make small talk but nothing like the English, they have surely better sense of humor than the Germans but they are a tight lot.

If you are not family, close friends they grew up with, you are just in their superficial circle. You can almost never get closer. It's not even customary to invite your neighbor to dinner. That Hi and Hello is just it, nothing more.

They like their privacy... and freedom. That's why I guess they don't expect others to help them nor they also extend help or advice ONLY WHEN ASKED.

Thats actually what I like with the Dutch Culture. To each his own.

amethyst ... whose gem symbolizes love and friendship and all that other gunk ... can I jst be a little forward?

"they are just not as open as what I thought compared to americans I know."

No - that's true. Dutch people don't express their emotions like americans do. Does that mean they are not open-minded? or does that mean they are not as open-minded as open-minded people are supposed to be? AND does that mean ... well, what the hell is the definition of "open mineded"- anyway .. cuz I SURE as hell had to change my mind to what's "cool"... I would be SO interseted to hear what you have to say ...

What did you think? What do you think a dutch person is?

"name all the things which might not be allowed in other countries, soft drug..blabla...I"

mental healthcare, addiction assistance, help if you can't find a home - help if you can't find a job - - - (that's a literal space) - - - HELP if YOU WANT TO FIT IN TO SOCIETY

oh ... I see ... why did you emigrate to holland? was it to be a drug addict?

did you emigrate because of the drug laws? watch your pocketbook, because it's THERE ... but it's transitory. and there are catches.
did you emigrate because you can be FREE?

baby, you can't be free if you don't speak dutch.
you won't EVER be free, if you aren't DUTCH.

"But here is the case, in our class of university, all the dutch stick together and speak dutch at the breaktime."

so? wouldn't you do that as well, if your country were overrun with people, insisting they can speak a language foreign to your own because "that's just how it's done"

which language do YOU speak, when you want to express your feelings?

What is your job?

did your dutch man leave you for a dutch woman?

I can not agree more. For dutch women, there is only one girl in our class and she seldom show up. But, she looks cute anyway.

what the **** turnip truck did you fall off of? cuz it was certainly not an american one ...

1) the programme is in English, anything related to study at least should be going on in english, with no exception for case study. I dont care they speak dutch for their own business

baby - are you gettin'bad grades?

<that's O.P.>

<smiles>

realgrrl

What is your job? This is a serious question.

"Dutch men come across as arrogant but Dutch women were lovely"

oh my GOD! <gasp> <rolls eyes>

I have a theory, actually, that this has to do with how they come across when SPEAKING ENGLISH.

Do you know at all about that?

you're an idiot. <blush, covers mouth with hand>

the theory would be that dutch men put up with dutch women because they are so EMANCIPATED ... funny, that ... (or maybe it's ME who is behind ... ) And have you, by any chance, noticed that there is a trend of both dutch men AND women dating outside their culture? tells me they don't have the answers ... what does that tell you?

and the 'arrogance' sensed is probably caused by some cross-cultural communication crossed wires?

that would be the cultural understatement of the year ... kudos to you! <s>

As far as the speaking dutch to international students go, well... I suspect every country speaks it's own language to international students because

a) they assume learning the language is at least part of why you've chosen to study in that country. most (Western) intellectuals want to study in another country because they know the benefits of learning another culture.

b) because it's impractical to cater for all languages - apparently it's even too big a job for the recently expanded European Parliament (who are having a tough time finding Estonian to Slovenian translators)

<funny ... I know I copied that ... have NO CLUE where I stole it from.>

my addition would be ... you've PAID for it, so it's english. anything you haven't paid for is your fault - tough luck if that's not your language. all dutch schools have an english language requirement. (this is an assumption I am assuming is true, because I don't actually care if I am right or wrong)

amethyst - I believe you said this?

2) How could they be so aggrogant and assume I would like to learn dutch? There are not so many people in the world speak dutch and it is derived from German somehow. However, I feel like since I have to stay here for at least one year. It seems it will make me feel better if I learn some dutch and get feet in here.

Maybe it's a bit off topic, but I would propose the question ...

Why does a person chose to study in the Netherlands?

Wouldn't the point of studying in another country, in part, be to learn another language, or culture ... and when it's so close to american culture (I am assuming you are NOT of a native english speaking culture?). Seems sort of pointless otherwise.

Exhibit 2. The Dutch East Indies!! Not the "Eastern Indian Oceanic Islands, now Commercially Run By Netherlanders From The Hague".


... um ... that would be "exhibit 2"...


Even in the casestudy with internatianal students who do not know dutch at all, they speak dutch and almost ignore there is someone who do not understand what the hell they are talking about

is that, perhaps, because they are trying to understand dutch society?

2) How could they be so aggrogant and assume I would like to learn dutch?

um ... and I have looked at your very telling profile, and I see you are going places ...

one of the big problems in holland is between asylum seekers and students/"legitimate immigrants" - and this is where my argument is coming from, because ... well, no, I won't say. <smiles VERY nicely to avoid rubbing your face in piss> so there are IMMIGRANTS - who came to a new country to make a new life (and who, socially, should be compared with the DUTCH students of holland who want to keep their country going) - so we have two camps:

New Dutch People (I'm an immigrant, so I will keep insisting that Dutch people of student age fit into this category - with an edge, but by virtue of the fact that they speak dutch - but they simply ARE dutch people, so that's fine), and asylum seekers.

My contention (in a cop-out, because I think the asylum seekers should speak for themselves) is that ... dutch society is doing fine with the people they are educating.

Do you have a problem with dutch education?

I guess I don't REALLY grasp your problem ... unless it has something to do with the psychological insecurity of not knowing what's going on? (which I ABSOLUTELY believe is true ... for everyone ... )

Can you put into twenty words what your problem with "the dutch" is?

sorry ... shall I point out spelling heere? grammarr? oh, no -I am too BOIG to do that ... <s> bitchy is as bitchy does. and that goes the same for hypocritical frustrated english majors, whether they be native speakers or not. (I can't find a job - I have the right to bitch, toch?)

and, by the way - I'm sorry, but dutch people - as far as *I* am concerened - are PREOCCUPIED with speaking english - it's something they strive for - so don't be insulting. <smiles really REALLY sweet>

I am wondering is all the dutch university students like this or just I am not so lucky to involved in one in Amseterdam.

<ahem> tries REALLY hard to understand what you are saying there ... is - WAS that english?

I would say, prolly - it's your tough luck.

but that's not to say it has something to do with your attitude.

have a nice day -
real girl

I would wager a guess that ... not only are you not dutch, but you're not a native speaker of english ... is this true?

just to point a finger (at myself) - amehyst ...

who do YOU think the Dutch People are?

I guess, bottom line, speaking as a tax-paying citizen of the netherlands is ...
what have YOU done for ME lately?

(and I absolutely don't mean to be rude. I apologize if you've stepped on my feelings, and I had to lash out.

<smiles VERY sweetly>

WHO are you fighting with arji?

the jury's still out. <s> thank you for asking.

i was *awfully* hard on amethyst - sorry. I certainly wasn't fighting with her.

I've lived in Holland for two years and there's something about Dutch people that puzzles me. I'm from America and I have a strong Southern California accent which anyone from North America can identify. I don't speak Dutch fluently yet but I understand alot of the language. When I hear someone from the Eastern Netherlands speak I can hear their accent. When I listen to Flemish people I can tell right away they are speaking a different dialect although I don't know as much of what they are saying. Dutch people always ask me if I am from England. What I don't understand is, why can't Dutch people differentiate between the dialects from two countries miles of ocean and two centuries apart when they can speak it fluently? Whereas English speakers like myself who understand little to no Dutch at all by comparison can still tell the difference between different dialects of this tiny area?

What throws them off? Because I don't dress like an American and apparently that's what gives most Yankees away. All Dutch people can spot Americans but it's because of their clothes. They are clueless to the sound of a British accent as opposed to an American.

Perhaps they are just trying to compliment you

Sorry, was being flippant there. Welcome to A2K, Xploding.