What do you think the dutch people are?

Heh ... I know just how they feel:

This is true, but there are no evil motives behind it. We don't reply to you all in English because we want to exclude you, or show off our language skills or anything else. It is just a habit. We learn english in school, we talk to strangers in a kind of english, or struggle with German or French because it is a habit, we are used to that being the way it is done. We are not very proud of our language.

But then we discover that speaking a foreign language is frustrating and difficult, and most people are barely capable of it. So sometimes this frustration comes back to you in the form of 'why don't you speak Dutch?'. It is annoying and stupid, we know it, you know it, and I don't think it will change.

Well I am a Dutchman, and in mine opinion you need a little history.

-After te second World War. Suriname and The Dutch Indies (Eastern Indies) became independent. That means they have their own government and president.
Only De Nederlandse Antillen + Aruba (Sint Maarten, Saba. Sint Eustatius and Curacao) are still part of The Kingdom of the Netherlands. Wich means that only the military and the foreign affaires are ruled bij the Dutch. And they have a the Dutch Queen or King.

-Holland has never been the official name of The Netherlands. After the independence war against Spain The Netherlands became independence. At that moment The Netherlands was not yet The Netherlands. It were first united states. Just like the US is now. Later on it became The Netherlands.

-Well and I think that the Dutch that went to Southern Africa called themselves "Boeren", what is in English "Farmers".

This is starting to get a Dutch onderonsje ... not good!

At least, some vreemdelinge en uitlanders are lurking, too.

That's a comfort

First random thoughts … just my opinion. second writing - first draft, looked up zero facts, no statistics … it really is just my opinion. A bit off-topic, but so am i. <smiles>

I think the Netherlands has a mystique known all over the world. Dutch people are forward-thinking (as opposed to open-minded), tolerant'(as opposed to sympathetic), benevolent (as opposed to nurturing). They're the ones who sent the abortion boat to Ireland, remember?

I'd actually love to sing the praises of Dutch culture, really - there used to be something really cool here (I've heard). That thing - and this is the thing you're not allowed to say - that thing was created by Dutch people - a fairly homogenous culture (with, of course, the help of the people of their colonies - the ones who mined the wealth and shipped the money back to Holland). THOSE people made it - and it was great. (Rumor has it.)

But they wanted the world to see it, share it - they wanted to make money on it with tourism to pad and bolster their reputations as benefactors to the third world. They invited 2nd world cultures here to help build it. Now they're having a hard time dealing with all of that. They're having a hard time facing the consequences of that. Now that the party's over, they're reluctant to pay the piper.

As they realize things, they come around. It's just that they weet ZEKER that there shouldn't be a bill to pay - they've ALREADY made their contribution to society. They've allowed all these people to live here - "now, could you just shut up and learn Dutch - and, godver - get ON with the integration, already!" The thing is … BEFORE all this moving of country went on … no one thought to check - is it even possible for Moroccan and Dutch culture to be melted into the same pot, if that pot is sitting in Den Haag and not in Casablanca? Why is it that Dutch people live happily in Istanbul, but the Turks who live in the Netherlands go to the doctor more frequently than any other ethnic group (and they're all higher than the Dutch)?

Something Dutch people don't seem to get yet is that integration is not ONLY about the incoming person changing - the society changes, also, because of exposure to the new individual, with his culturally specific values and common sense - his own cultural peculiarities that are thought of as quaint, and are greedily integrated into dutch kitchens, bedrooms, and fashion magazines.

Something in the air tells me that Dutch people don't quite realize yet that you can't just suck all the good and worthwhile out of a person and reject and discount the unpleasant and disagreeable. People don't work that way. It's kind of like having a cat that looks pretty normal, except that instead of having four legs, a head and a tail, he's got four legs and two heads. How the hell does he relieve himself? If you think about it, a cat like that can't do anything except talk a load of confused ****.

And the Netherlands is already full of talking heads.

Of course, every story has two sides - a place for you to be the victim, a place for me to be the victim. It's no different here. The immigrants are here, they're needy and demanding. Greedy and UNGRATEFUL! And Dutch people don't understand why they have to tolerate the mess that's being made of their country. (Psst - it's because you're supposed to be tolerant. <winks>)

They're rolling deep in variety with the immigrants they've got - the ones still coming in from the former colonies (strangely enough … you don't really hear about them on the news anymore … magically - they've stopped being a problem.) There're the ones coming in as asylum seekers - legitimate and not-so; those who've heard about the Great Welfare State and loudly sing songs about the WW (welfare benefit); and those invited guest workers, who like the life they saw here, and stayed - and started bringing their extended families, because you need family to keep warm in the lowlands. There are the men and women who fall in love with Dutch men and women and come to live here (this is the one Dutch people have the hardest time understanding, actually) - because it's possible, because the Dutch person would rather live here than somewhere else. (who the hell wants to live in Thailand?).the women who come here because they see the opportunity to have a life for themselves - they just have to buy it with their bodies. They're all coming under the same laws. Laws created by the Dutch government. <shrugs>

Eigen schuld.

ALL of these immigrants have expectations and needs, contributions and opinions - and they're pretty much all individual … <shrugs>

As an aside, these people ARE in fact different from a typical Expat - these people have left one life to make another. Expats bring their old life with them, and often take it away to the next country again.

Dutch people are raised to be dependent on the state to meet their basic needs. And it does that - when you're legal. But in aspects that are relevant to this particular discussion - they are extremely independent. Compared with Dutch people, Turks, Moroccans and Americans (to name three random examples) are extremely co-dependent. What happens when a co-dependent person's security is threatened? They expect to be taken care of … by a person. Because- according to their cultural common sense - You can't depend on the government - but you CAN depend on people. Quite a shock to find out that there's a country completely through the looking glass in that respect. If I were eligible for welfare, I'd probably be addicted to it, too. Security is hard to find for immigrants in Holland.

Something that Dutch people don't seem to get yet … is that people who move to this country as adults have missed a crucial step - they simply have no idea HOW to be independent the Dutch way. And, believe it or not - it makes no sense to people to be like that, anyway. But they're here, and they'll learn. Because they have to.

I think Dutch people are a people who haven't been put under a microscope by outside observers, so what we think the Dutch are is mostly a reflection of how the Dutch see themselves - and not actually how they ARE, at all. You've got to live with them a few years, Margaret Mead-style, to sort out the glue from the glamour.

What (sic?) do I think Dutch people are? A large group of individuals caught up in life's drama with other groups of individuals. I'm curious to see what happens.

Thank you for your take, Arji... and for coming here to share it. I'm glad you did. <nods>

If there's anyone who'd know about the things you're talking about, I'm sure, it'd be you.

<smiles>

No prob, homeboy.

Heh.

I think the dutch are a people who can't be expected to understand what it's like to grow up in a culture so profoundly NOT like theirs - and then to be granted the privlege of living in a country QUITE like theirs ... Dutch people who live in OTHER countries, however - should, after a time, be able to see the difference.

I/ve read - literally - NOTHING, fyi.

By the way, amethyst - you sound like a real racist. although one that's trying to understand. <s> Of COURSE they come across like that - they''re defensive, in their own country.

She has a really pretty avatar tho...

En verder?

leez je wel?

heheh

doubt anyone'd relate,but thanks.