watercolor paper-weights. HELP ME OR THE DOG GETS IT.

am I clear in my question/
I use 300 lb w/c paper. The japanese paper equiv is listed as 640 gm. What does this mean?? Is the paper a standard weight? is it all a horruble scam?

It's a small world, farmerman.
I own a four-store chain of art supply stores so I know a bit about materials.
The weight of paper (any kind of paper) refers to how much a ream (500 sheets) weighs. So 500 sheets of the paper you are accustomed to weighs 300 lbs. A paper that is advertised as 640 grams (metric) comes out to 300 lbs. So the weight is the same, and, at least in watercolor paper, you are comparing paper of the same size: 22x30" or so.
(Some drawing papers are more problematic: an 80 lb paper from one company may refer to 500 sheets of 22x30" vs another company's 90 lb paper that is 24x36"). That drives me nuts.

I would gently caution you about buying your paper solely on the basis of price. Papers from different mills (even though they may be of the same weight) can give widely divergent results.
When we have the time, we put together packets of 11x15" samplers of 10 different papers. Folks are amazed at how the different papers behave.
There are a number of books out there comparing characteristics of various papers. I hope this helps. -realjohnboy-

Very interesting, realjohnboy!

johnboy--how does it work? lb. Im familiar with the ream weight in aRches but Im really confused as to how 640 g is calculated.
A 300 lb sheet of Arches weighs 9.6oz per sheet (standard 24x36 for arches). this would mean that a 640g sheet would weigh 22.5 oz.
Now unless the sheets are of different dimensions or the stuff is reaally that thick. Or, maybe they dont measure it by the ream. If thats the case then I may not be getting as good a deal.

ive used the paper before and its really white with a good surface. its not as rough as Arches, but just enough to catch and hold washes.

Maybe im thinking this too much.
pS, I always buy where I get the best deal. i will drive many miles to save a buck. However, i only buy what i have used or, if Im trying new stuff, I will pick up 2 sheets and do a tight painting with a lot of "tricks" (salt, frisket, dry brush etc) on the other Ill make some wet washes and see how the paper takes the paint. )
thanks for any help you can give me.
are you faqmiliar with Ulano or kilimanjaro/

There are 454 gms in a lb, so there's something wrong with those calculations. That would mean that the 500 sheet ream that weighs 300 lbs (a sheet weighs just under a half pound?), only weighs one and a half pounds from the other supplier.

I used the 28.3 g per oz beth. thats about 452g per pound. close enough. I believe that they dont use a weight per ream basis. Thats where my confusion comes in.

Well now you've gone and befuddled poor realjohnboy. I'm sticking by my claim that a 640 gram paper = a 300 lb paper. I'll pull the label off a package tomorrow and report back.

You said, Farmerman, that you have tried the paper and you like it. That was my concern, that you would buy a bunch of it and discover that you didn't like it.

I've been in this business for 30 years. There are some incredible, absolutely incredible, materials coming out of China, India, and the old Russia. Paints, brushes, canvas and papers.

And prices? Well, I reckon that would have to be discussed on the political thread. Suffice it to say that Winsor & Newton is reeling.

Ah, more and more interesting...

A bed-time story for water-colorists:
The finest, absolutely the finest, brush for watercolor artists is known in the west as the Kolinsky Sable.
The animal from which it comes is actually the Marten Weasel, generally found in the far northern regions of China and Russia. And the best hair comes from the underbelly of the male (I'm not making this up; rjb does write a lot of fiction on A2K-but not here). The hair is long, thick and springy, tapered towards the ends with delicate scales to hold and release water smoothly. Evidentally this is important to the poor guy out there foraging.
A cheap brush is made by grabbing a bunch of hair and cutting it to shape with a scissors. A Kolinsky Sable bush is made by hand-rolling the hairs without trimming, such that the first hair is in the center and is surrounded by five hairs and then by fifteen and so on; each layer, outward and downward being done without any snipping away of the natural hair endings. A very labor intensive task.
Queen Victoria was a watercolor artist and commissioned Winsor&Newton to manufacture her brushes (now known as Series 7). The people who could do it best were folks who were used to using their fingers to nimbly repair fishing nets.
The largest size that they made was a #14 which sold for $1000 in about
1987. I bought and sold one. The lady is probably still using it. With proper care a Kolinsky Sable should last forever.

Today, they are still hand-made in the same way (but in China or Russia) and the hair is a blend of male (60%) and female (40%) hair.

Good night. -realjohnboy

Ive always wondered how the brushes got that special point .

Ive got a few of the masters french brushes which, while sable, arent kolinsky. I use mostly flats, Ive learned to use these from an old teacher and liked the exactness they impart to a stroke. Ive got a bunch of 'mops' that I use for washes.

I use Sennelier wc mostly. I like their grind. Ive fornd that Winsor Newtons granulation colors (blues) have a grind thats big enough that I can see the individual color particle and this bugged me. I learned with WN but i think theyve changed their quality and just produce a good student grade wc.

now, what is the diff between male and female hairs?
Is this one of those "gear' stories/ where the merchant talks one into buying something more expensive than is really needed.
(Camping , hiking, and fishing gear merchants are famous for this )

This should help.


link with conversion chart




clear as mud?
follow the link ... it's to the cached page ... i'm too tired to 'uncache' it

I think this page is probably easier to use as a reference.

paper paper link

ahhh, there was something there beth. The paper is measured in gm/sq meter. (the other papers are just measured by weight per ream at a standard dimension. so, from here on, I guess Ive gotta use "basis weight' (new term to me ).
THANKS


ok dog, your free.

what a great thread...

Interesting stuff isn't it.
I felt like I was back in class with Mr. Schonberger.

Good news about the dog.

Good evening. I realize that, in my attempt to be brief about paper weights, I had been pretty careless. Yes, 300 lb = 640 grams per sq meter. Sorry about that.
As for the male/female hair of the Kolinsky: I'm sticking by my story. The male spends most of his time out foraging while his lady stays at home taking care of the kids and watching Oprah. (just kidding about the Oprah part).
Finally, someone hit a nerve with the comment about selling people something that they don't need. Teachers come in with class lists (and we give the students a 25% discount). As often as not we try to talk the teachers into shortening the list and using lesser grade materials, particularly in a class taught, for example, through Parks & Rec. If 15 people sign up but 8 drop when they see how much the materials cost. they are gone and probably will be gone forever. That's not good.

it doesn't always pay to be brief with this crowd, rjohnb. many of us are, errrrrr, to be polite, detail-oriented.

I'm going to remember the Kolinsky sable. I sometimes pick up brushes at auction. I've always marvelled that even very old ones can seem to be in better condition than ones I know to be newer.

I am not arguing johnboy. I was just curious about the hair difference between male and female kolinsky. ( I think I had a Paulette Kolinsky in my 2nd grade class when I went to Our Lady of Responsible Shopping School.)

This thread is far too heavy for me. I'm going back to philosophy.