Outrage of the Day: VR Sexual Assault.

@maxdancona,

You're the one that pivoted from user experience to catering to white and/or "uptight" people:

maxdancona wrote:

Drewdad wrote:
Online communities that ignore bad user experiences don't last very long.

Define "bad user experiences". These games don't cater to uptight middle-class White adults.

Do you go meetings with Hawkeye, or something?

I know plenty of "not uptight" people who still don't go to strip clubs; personally I find them kind of sad rather than entertaining. It's not a moral stance; I just can't maintain the illusion that those young ladies enjoy being there and want the company of leering, middle-aged men.

And implicit in your "argument" is that games don't need to cater to uptight, middle-class white women because games are for boys who want to be boys. That anyone who complains can just go get stuffed. It shows a very shallow (as in, microns-deep) understanding of business, gaming, manners, and community building.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

My point is that different groups of users will want different user experiences.

Many people find Game of Thrones to be very entertaining. Game of Thrones has been successful by any definition of the word. Still there are people who find Game of Thrones to be disgusting and offensive. There are moves to boycott Game of Thrones from both the Right and the Left.

This woman entered a virtual world and expected it to cater to her. In this case, the game designers decided to cater to her. In other games, she would be ignored. There are games that cater to people who want fantasy depictions of sexual assault. If you don't like that, then you shouldn't play these games.

Not every community, or every business, will cater to you. If you walk into a strip club and tell them you want the middle-aged men to stop "leering" you will be told to (as you say) "get stuffed". For that matter, if you walked into a Starbucks and ask the woman behind the counter to take off her shirt, you would get the same response.

Different businesses and different communities cater to different needs. It is very shallow to expect every community to act the same. If you enter a space where "leering" is expected and you are offended by "leering", it is your problem, not theirs.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

If I signed in to play a shooting game and it turned into a rape game I'd be pretty alarmed.

I might even get upset if I found that the player's version of a victory dance was to assault someone in this way. The "ick" factor is just way too high.

Sure it's all pretend but this lies somewhere between what the game mechanics allow and the actual inclinations of the player. It's fuzzy and I can't quite put my finger on why it bothers me the way it does.

I think the game maker could easily remedy this by patching the game so that the crouch/stand command, when repeated a number of times in a row, drained the XP or other rankings, or just had the character fall over dead.

1 Reply

@boomerang,

I suspect from your post that you don't sign in to play shooting games. And that is exactly the point. These games aren't made for you. They are made for an audience that skews to early adolescents with a rebellious streak and an immature sense of humor.

Any of the patches you suggest would likely alienate the people who actually enjoy playing these games. Obviously the people who do "teabagging" are entertained by it. For them, it adds to the game.

I think it is fine to try to make games that don't offend middle-aged professionals or baby boomer parents. I think this is more difficult because middle-aged professionals don't consume games the way adolescents do. Although there is always Candy Crush (a game I can't understand why anyone would waste more than 2 minutes on).

But you can't insist that all games are this way. The solution is to allow a variety of spaces. Some of them will be coffee shops with classical music and an attached independent book store. Some of them will be strip clubs with hip hop and leering. Each person can decide which of these appeals to them. Some people will understand how to appreciate them both.

Demanding that every space will cater to you is unreasonable.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I actually do play some shooting games. I really like video games and play quite a few different kinds. You're right about not often playing online with others though.

I think a lot more girls play video games than you think. It's well documented that they often hide their gender. If there are players in your group not using a microphone they're probably girls.

Are you saying boys wouldn't play this game if they couldn't teabag others? I think they would, especially if it's a popular franchise. I've listened for nearly a year about how the new COD is going to suck but everyone who has said it still has it on preorder.

1 Reply

could be NSFW if you work for a strict boss.

Appropriate to the conversation though.

0 Replies

@boomerang,

You are assuming that girls aren't ever immature or offensive. You are wrong.

My preteen daughter plays in a Minecraft league. It is actually pretty cool, they all bring laptops to a movie theater and an overhead view of the world is projected on the big screen (they each get their own perspective on the laptop).

They do "minecraft sex" to each other (and yes the proposition is correct since it is non-consensual even though it is generally reciprocated). They will run up right next to another player, make their characters jump up and down as if they are rubbing up and down on the "victim". The kids all refer to this as "sex".

The preteens (including my preteen girl) think this is hilarious. Of course most of the adults have no idea that they call this "minecraft sex". I don't know if you have preteens, or remember being a preteen... but this kind of inappropriate play is part of what preteens do. In a way, these virtual worlds make gender irrelevant. The girls are equals, even though they are outnumbered (they are probably 25% of the players) you can't tell who is who and the girls give as good as they get.

So don't assume that gamer girls are any more appropriate or easily damaged than the gamer boys.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I'm not assuming that. Girls can be totally gross.

I imagine there are many boys who don't think teabagging is funny.

You described feeling "helpless" and "annoyed" by it in your initial post. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

I have a 15 year old son. I'm going to ask him about it when he gets home tonight.

1 Reply

@boomerang,

Quote:

You described feeling "helpless" and "annoyed" by it in your initial post. That doesn't sound like fun to me.

I have a 15 year old son. I'm going to ask him about it when he gets home tonight.

I would be very curious to hear your son's take on this. I am sure he knows what teabagging is. He might even admit that he does it.

Just please promise me that I am not getting him in trouble. I am old enough to remember ASCII porn when we were kids.

0 Replies

Here's an interesting article from 2014

Quote:

The confusing, nasty muck of the Gamergate scandal, in which anonymous attackers have harassed and sent death threats to women linked to the video-game industry, has morphed into a bitter culture war over the world's $100 billion gaming empire.

But the fight has also highlighted the minefield facing an industry still learning how best to attract -- and protect -- a new generation of American gamer. The danger, analysts said: The fight could scare away the growing market of women the gaming industry wants.

The stereotype of a "gamer" -- mostly young, mostly nerdy and most definitely male -- has never been further from the truth. In the United States, twice as many adult women play video games as do boys, according to the Entertainment Software Association, the industry's top trade group. Male gamers between ages 10 and 25 represent a sliver of the market, only 15 percent, according to Newzoo, a games research firm.

Yet America's 190 million gamers, 48 percent of whom are women, still play in a harsh frontier. About 70 percent of female gamers said they played as male characters online in hopes of sidestepping sexual harassment, according to a study cited by "Hate Crimes in Cyberspace" author and law professor Danielle Keats Citron.

"It's just like playing outside when you're a teenager. It's still a jungle out there," said Peter Warman, the chief executive of Newzoo. Of the women who played as men, he said, "they wanted to be treated equal on the virtual battlefield."

More: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2014/10/17/more-women-play-video-games-than-boys-and-other-surprising-facts-lost-in-the-mess-of-gamergate/

1 Reply

@boomerang,

Have you listened to the other side of the Gamergate scandal? There are lots of female gamers who disagree with Anita Sarkeesian. And it is not hard to hear hostility from female gamers toward "feminism" for using them as a pawn to advance a political agenda.

A quick search found this....

I don't think this is relevant to the discussion. But if you are going to bring this up, then you should be prepared to hear both sides of the story.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

This woman entered a virtual world and expected it to cater to her.

Er... what? She described an interaction that was upsetting, which is entirely appropriate. The game designers listened to her, and modified their game, which is their prerogative.

It seems to me that you're the one with the issue, not her. You've apparently got an issue with women intruding into a traditionally male sphere, and with anyone who speaks up for themselves.

According to what you've expressed here, though, you, too, should just shut up. Nobody wants to listen to your whining.....

2 Replies

@DrewDad,

We should start a new post: Outrage of the day: Max gets panties in a twist about women speaking up for what they like and dislike.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

I'll try to listen to that later but I don't really see this as a feminist issue at all.

0 Replies

@DrewDad,

Think of it this way DrewDad. Would you deny the right of female gamers who enjoy fantasy violence and sexuality to enjoy video games that cater to them? The assumption here is that only males enjoy these things, or make these jokes, or have the freedom to act inappropriately.

I can tell you with certainty that this is not true. Women are all different, they aren't all the delicate, easily offended clones you think they are.

Let's have free, open spaces where women and men can be free to express themselves in crude ways if they wish. That is what some of these games offer to people who love them.

It doesn't fit your political narrative. But this isn't man vs. woman.

I agree that game designers have the right to listen to any of their players and modify a game. That is their prerogative.

I don't agree that we should demand that every game, and every public space, meet the demands that a fictional world not offend people.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Funny DrewDad, Up to this point no one has made any personal attacks. The fact that your personal attack involves my wearing of female undergarments is very funny. I don't see anything about wearing women's underwear that takes away from the points I am making. Do you?

See, what happened there. You tried to offend me with a gender-based attack, and I laughed it off. Maybe there is a lesson here.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

I think video games like restaurants. Some have good food, some don't. Some have interesting themes, some don't. If you go to Hooters, you know what you're are going to get. Some people go for the Hooters Girls, some go for the food, but if you like the food, you really shouldn't complain about the servers. No one made you eat there and that is the experience they promise. Same with video games. IMO, a video game designer that wants to reach the maximum audience will focus on a good player experience (good food), but some of them might add some themes that are not for everyone. Grand Theft Auto comes to mind as a game that added a theme that might turn some players off while attracting others. If I decided to play GTA, I wouldn't complain about the social aspects of the game. If I don't like those aspects, I'll play something like L.A. Noire made by the same people but with a lot less violence and mayhem.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

I can tell you with certainty that this is not true. Women are all different, they aren't all the delicate, easily offended clones you think they are.

WTF are you talking about?

You're the one that keeps going on about "uptight, middle-class, white women."

Meanwhile, I'm saying she can speak her peace and the game designers can make their own decision about how to handle the game mechanics.

Your mini-tantrum about "how dare anyone get upset by a game" is just BS. My question back to you is "how dare anyone get upset by a complaint about a game?"

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

You are fighting with me on something that we agree on. The game designers can make their own decision about how to handle the game mechanics.

I understand you have identity forclosure, and I understand that makes it emotionally difficult for you when someone disagrees with your world view. But let's not make this personal. I don't take this personally. This is an interesting topic. There is nothing to get upset about here. So calm down and lets have an intelligent discussion between two intelligent people... or between one intelligent person and an idiot if you can't accept me as an intelligent person.

This is like the video game we are talking about. If you aren't enjoying this discussion you don't have to be here.

There is no need for us to fight over things we agree about. And I am here for an intelligent discussion, not a fight, anyway.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

Jesus, you're a lame troll.

You really need to up your game.

1 Reply

Outrage of the Day: VR Sexual Assault.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know