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Facts on Florida 2000

 
 
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 09:07 am
September 17, 2004
The Myth of the Stolen Election - Part I
By John Fund

(Note: The following is an excerpt from John Fund's new book: Stealing Elections.)

The current toxic political atmosphere, in which one side is concerned about voter fraud and the other about voter disfranchisement, is largely the product of the elephant in the parlor left over from the 2000 election. Of course, I'm talking about the Florida recount, the gold standard for botched elections, and all the bitter recriminations it launched.

The Florida battle returned to the news as the 2004 election approached in Michael Moore's hit film Fahrenheit 9/11, which begins with a malicious account of what happened in 2000. In essence, Moore claims that George W. Bush, aided by Florida's Republican secretary of state Katherine Harris and the FOX News Channel, stole the election - that and everyone knows it.

There are many issues to debate and argue about the sordid Florida experience, but one of the most intriguing is how a cottage industry has sprung up among liberals to perpetuate this myth. (Jesse Jackson still refers to Florida as "the scene of the crime" where "we were disenfranchised. Our birthright stolen.") As the 2004 election grew closer, the distortions spread beyond Moore's fantasy to the presidential campaign itself. Senator John Kerry told crowds that "we know thousands of people were denied the right to vote." His running mate, former trial lawyer John Edwards, ended speeches with a closing argument about "an incredible miscarriage of justice" in Florida.

Such assertions are simply not supported by the facts. Moore alleges that "under every scenario Gore would have won" Florida without the intervention by the U.S. Supreme Court. But in fact, every single recount of the votes in Florida determined that George W. Bush had won the state's twenty-five electoral votes and therefore the presidency. This includes a manual recount of votes in largely Democratic counties by a consortium of news organizations, among them the Wall Street Journal, CNN, the Boston Globe and the Los Angeles Times. As the New York Times reported on November 21, 2001, "A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year's presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward." The USA Today recount team concluded: "Who would have won if Al Gore had gotten manual counts he requested in four counties? Answer: George W. Bush."

Why do liberals persist in propagating the Myth of the Stolen Election? Many of them sincerely believe in it, all this evidence notwithstanding. Others see it as a rallying cry that can bring out the Democratic Party's core voters this fall in righteous anger. The Florida controversy also offers a pretext for some to talk about other changes they want to make in election laws. (The NAACP, for example, wants to "re-enfranchise" four million felons who have lost the right to vote because of their crimes.) Some liberals would even like to extend voting privileges to non-citizens. In July 2004, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted to give noncitizens, legal or illegal, the right to vote in local school board elections. The ACLU once sued the U.S. attorney in San Francisco because he matched voting records against lists of legal immigrants who were not yet citizens. The ACLU argued that trying to determine whether noncitizens were voting would have a "chilling effect" on Hispanic voting.

After all the media recounts of 2001 showed that George W. Bush would still have won under any fair standard, Democratic activists have narrowed their charges to the purported disfranchisement of black voters. The Civil Rights Commission, led by Democrat Mary Frances Berry-with only two Republican commissioners at the time-issued a scathing majority report in 2001 alleging "widespread voter disenfranchisement" and accusing Katherine Harris and Jeb Bush of "failing to fulfill their duties in a manner that would prevent this disenfranchisement."

But when it comes to actual evidence of racial bias, the report draws inferences that are not supported by any data and ignores facts that challenge its conclusions. Since we have a secret ballot in America, we do not know the race of the 180,000 voters (2.9 percent of the total number of ballots cast in Florida) whose ballots had no valid vote for president. Machine error cannot be the cause of discrimination, since the machine doesn't know the race of the voter either, and in any case accounts for about one error in 250,000 votes cast. (And, as some have asked, is it not racist in the first place to assume that those who spoil ballots are necessarily minority voters?)

One-third of the supposedly disfranchised voters' ballots were "undervotes"-that is, ballots that showed no vote for president. Think a moment of your own experience as a voter: have you declined to vote for some office on the ballot when you went to the polls? Studies show that over 70 percent of undervotes-where no candidate is selected-are cast deliberately by voters who prefer not to choose from the available options.

The report also discusses "overvoting," the marking of more than one candidate for an office. Even Civil Rights Commission chairman Mary Frances Berry admitted that she had sometimes "overvoted intentionally." In any case, voter error, whether intentional or inadvertent, is not the same thing as racial discrimination.

Nor, as a powerful dissenting report from commissioners Abigail Thernstrom and Russell Redenbaugh pointed out, was the commission able to come up with "a consistent, statistically significant relationship between the share of voters who were African-American and the ballot spoilage rate." John Lott, an economist and statistician from the Yale Law School now with the American Enterprise Institute, studied spoilage rates in Florida by county in the 1992, 1996 and 2000 presidential elections and compared them with demographic changes in county populations. He concluded that "the percent of voters in different race or ethnic categories is never statistically related to ballot spoilage."

Lott found that among the 25 Florida counties with the greatest rate of vote spoilage, 24 had Democratic election officers in charge of counting the votes. He concluded that "having Democratic officials in charge [of county elections] increases ballot spoilage rates significantly, but the effect is stronger when that official is an African-American." Commissioner Abigail Thernstrom argued that "it is very difficult to see any political motive that would lead Democratic local officials to try to keep the most faithful members of their party from the polls and to somehow spoil the ballots of those who did make it into the voting booth."

Finally, despite all the talk about black voters, what about potential disfranchisement of Latinos? After all, there are 2.7 million Hispanics in Florida (compared with 2.3 million blacks), yet in its zeal to politicize the black issue the commission undertook no serious analysis of Hispanic voting. It asks us to believe that nonblack Florida voters (which includes most Hispanics) had a spoilage rate of 1.6 percent compared with 14.4 percent for blacks. Not only is such a statistical disparity not proven, but the academic who did the statistical work for the commission, Allan Lichtman, refuses to make public his data or regression tables.

In fact, Florida 2000 was not a startling anomaly. Ballot-spoilage rates across the country range between 2 and 3 percent of total ballots cast. Florida's rate in 2000 was 3 percent. In 1996 it was 2.5 percent. Glitches occur in every election-which is not to downplay the problem, but to put it into perspective. For example, the number of ruined ballots in Chicago alone was 125,000, compared with 174,000 for the entire state of Florida. Several states experienced voting problems remarkably similar to those in Florida. But the closeness of the 2000 election in Florida made the state a prime opportunity for racial demagoguery.

Other charges from Democratic activists turned out to be "falsehoods and exaggerations." For instance, when the commission investigated the charge that a police traffic checkpoint near a polling place had intimidated black voters, it turned out that the checkpoint operated for ninety minutes at a location two miles from the poll and not even on the same road. And of the sixteen people given citations, twelve were white.

In the end, Florida attorney general Bob Butterworth-a Democrat-testified that of the 2,600 complaints he received on Election Day, only three were about racial discrimination.

September 21, 2004
More Facts on Florida 2000: Time Zone Turnout - Part II
By John Fund

(Note: The following is an excerpt from John Fund's new book: Stealing Elections.)

Fahrenheit 9/11 tried to demonize the FOX News Channel, claiming that because a cousin of George W. Bush, John Ellis, was working on the network's election desk that night, FOX gave the public the mistaken impression that Bush had won. The film shows CBS and CNN calling Florida for Gore, followed by a voiceover sneering, "Then something called the FOX News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy."

But Moore leaves out the fact that FOX first called Florida for Gore-and didn't call it back until 2 AM. Indeed, all the networks, FOX included, helped Gore by prematurely calling the Florida polls as closed at 7:00 PM Eastern Time when in fact they were still open until 8:00 in the state's western Panhandle (which is heavily Republican), and almost immediately they declared Democrat Bill Nelson the winner of the state's U.S. Senate race. (CBS alone declared Florida's polls closed thirty-three times between 7:00 and 8:00 PM.) Then, at 7:48, the networks, led by NBC, started calling the state for Gore while voters in the Panhandle still had twelve minutes to get to the polls. Of the thousands of prospective voters who were standing in line or en route and heard the news on radio, many gave up and went home.

"By prematurely declaring Gore the winner shortly before the polls had closed in Florida's conservative western Panhandle, the media ended up suppressing the Republican vote," concluded John Lott of the American Enterprise Institute. John McLaughlin & Associates, a Republican polling firm based in Virginia, pegged the loss at 11,500 votes. Its poll, conducted November 15 and 16, showed that the misinformation about poll hours and the premature calling of Florida for Gore dissuaded 28,050 voters from casting ballots; 64 percent of these would have voted for Bush. Even a study commissioned by Democratic strategist Bob Beckel concluded that Bush suffered a net loss of up to 8,000 votes in the western Panhandle as a result of confusion sown by the networks.

While some caution should be brought to these polls since they were taken after the turnout in the Panhandle had become an issue and responses might reflect the political views of those surveyed, statistical evidence on voter participation rates implies a similar drop in voting. In an article in the academic journal Public Choice, Lott examined voter turnout rates for Florida counties from 1976 to 2000 and found a significant drop-off in turnout for the ten western Panhandle counties relative to the rest of the state in 2000.

The results suggest a net loss of 30,000 votes for Bush. Other evidence he examined on time-of-day turnout during the 2000 election found that the western Panhandle counties actually experienced a relatively high turnout during the first half of the day, but this dipped at the end of the day to slightly below the rest of the state. These data point to a net loss for Bush of between 7,500 and 10,000 votes.

Evaluating these figures is more than a mathematical exercise. In fact, Gore would have had much less moral authority to contest the Florida results had his margin of defeat been 10,000 votes. As the Washington Times' Bill Sammon pointedly observes, "A five-digit margin would have been much more daunting for Mr. Gore to overcome than a three-digit one."

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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 09:13 am
Hmmm. That's interesting. I'm not sure I know what to do with this information though. Isn't it just as possible that Republicans, having heard the race called for Gore, would run to the polls? And isn't it also likely that Democrats would stay home having heard that their guy already won?

I'm not someone who likes to rehash Florida 2000. I've always said that it didn't really matter because the country is so divided that a close election was bound to happen, and if it comes down to a couple of hundred people then it's a draw anyway.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 10:12 am
Forget about the 'early declaration of winner' stuff. Diebold changed 16k votes blatantly, and got caught doing it, and they are still going to be used in the next election.

Welcome to bizarro world.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 10:16 am
Wasn't Harris Bush's campaign manager in Florida? Probably had no bearing on everything that happened, though. Eh, McG?
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 10:24 am
The article has so much spin, it makes me dizzy.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 10:30 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Forget about the 'early declaration of winner' stuff. Diebold changed 16k votes blatantly, and got caught doing it, and they are still going to be used in the next election.

Welcome to bizarro world.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm

Cycloptichorn


That's interesting. I didn't even know they were using electronic voting machines in Florida in 2000. It's interesting that the response to acknowledged problems in poor precints was to advocate using these same machines.
0 Replies
 
padmasambava
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 02:55 pm
Mesquite is correct. It leaves me dizzy too.

And thank you cycloptichorn for the article about Diebold.

We know we were "had." The question that remains is whether they will get away with it again.
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kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 04:10 pm
John Fund? Whatever Mr. Fund writes should be open to the strongest scutiny. After all, the man confessed to beating up and bloodying his girl friend, and a girl friend who was by the way the daughter of his ex-girl friend. So anything that comes from a slimeball like Mr. Fund who beats a poor defenseless woman is suspect in my opinion.

Still, Mr. Fund is lying, knowingly so, under the impression that his readers are already drunk on the swastiki spiked kool-aid or have forotten the real facts that matter.

Note that Mr. Fund left out evidence that completely refutes his thesis and has offered up chicken $hit as chicken salad.

The 2000 election count in Florida was halted because the SCOTUS stated that the recount would not be finished before arbitrary date set for certification, Dec 12, 2000. Lost, ignored or dismissed is that the actual date for each state to present its electors to the Electoral College was January 2001.

There was more than enough time to tally the under and over votes as directed by the Florida SC. It would not have taken a year but a matter of days.

All the reports from the press showed that had a recount of the entire state of Florida, including first time counts (and not "recounts"), on under votes, AND over votes, the latter required by law, but not even counted before the SCOTUS stopped the recount, Gore would have won.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/12/politics/12VOTE.html?pagewanted=2

Note that the majority SCOTUS decision made explicitly clear that the over-riding of Florida state laws (to allow a state-wide recount, under the situation of Bush v. Gore) concerning elections was not to be construed for any other case as to the SCOTUS's position on states rights. The SCOTUS overturned the Florida Supreme Court because the SCOTUS said that other state's voters would be aggrieved because of the ruling of the Florida court. If that is not a federal usurpation of states rights, I do not know what the hell is. That the conservatives on the SCOTUS ruled in this case contrary to how they did in every other case involving states rights issues is the reason so many consider their decision purely political and not based upon the judicial philosophies that they expounded upon in their earlier comments from the bench and which they hold now.

The consortium examined 175,010 ballots that vote-counting machines had rejected that November. Those included so-called under votes, or ballots on which the machines could not discern a preference for president, and over votes, those on which voters marked more than one candidate.

The examination then sought to judge what might have been considered a legal vote under various conditions ?- from the strictest interpretation (a clearly punched hole) to the most liberal (a small indentation, or dimple, that indicated the voter was trying to punch a hole in the card). But even under the most inclusive standards, the review found that at most, 24,619 ballots could have been interpreted as legal votes.

The numbers reveal the flaws in Mr. Gore's post-election tactics and, in retrospect, why the Bush strategy of resisting county-by-county recounts was ultimately successful.

In a finding rich with irony, the results show that even if Mr. Gore had succeeded in his effort to force recounts of under votes in the four Democratic counties, Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach and Volusia, he still would have lost, although by 225 votes rather than 537. An approach Mr. Gore and his lawyers rejected as impractical ?- a statewide recount ?- could have produced enough votes to tilt the election his way, no matter what standard was chosen to judge voter intent.

Another complicating factor in the effort to untangle the result is the overseas absentee ballots that arrived after Election Day. A New York Times investigation in 2001 showed that 680 of the late- arriving ballots did not meet Florida's standards yet were still counted. The vast majority of those flawed ballots were accepted in counties that favored Mr. Bush, after an aggressive effort by Bush strategists to pressure officials to accept them.

A statistical analysis conducted for The Times determined that if all counties had followed state law in reviewing the absentee ballots, Mr. Gore would have picked up as many as 290 additional votes, enough to tip the election in Mr. Gore's favor in some of the situations studied in the statewide ballot review.

But Mr. Gore chose not to challenge these ballots because many were from members of the military overseas, and Mr. Gore did not want to be accused of seeking to invalidate votes of men and women in uniform.

If all the ballots had been reviewed under any of seven single standards, and combined with the results of an examination of over votes, Mr. Gore would have won, by a very narrow margin.

For example, using the most permissive "dimpled chad" standard, nearly 25,000 additional votes would have been reaped, yielding 644 net new votes for Mr. Gore and giving him a 107-vote victory margin.

But the dimple standard was also the subject of the most disagreement among coders, and Mr. Bush fought the use of this standard in recounts in Palm Beach, Broward and Miami- Dade Counties. Many dimples were so light that only one coder saw them, and hundreds that were seen by two were not seen by three. In fact, counting dimples that three people saw would have given Mr. Gore a net of just 318 additional votes and kept Mr. Bush in the lead by 219.

Using the most restrictive standard ?- the fully punched ballot card ?- 5,252 new votes would have been added to the Florida total, producing a net gain of 652 votes for Mr. Gore, and a 115-vote victory margin.

All the other combinations likewise produced additional votes for Mr. Gore, giving him a slight margin over Mr. Bush, when at least two of the three coders agreed.

The Florida Supreme Court urged a statewide recount and ordered the state's 67 counties to begin a manual re-examination of the under votes in a ruling issued Dec. 8 that left Mr. Gore and his allies elated.

The Florida court's 4-to-3 ruling rejected Mr. Gore's plea for selective recounts in four Democratic counties, but also Mr. Bush's demand for no recounts at all. Justice Barbara Pariente, in her oral remarks, asked, "Why wouldn't it be proper for any court, if they were going to order any relief, to count the under votes in all of the counties where, at the very least, punch-card systems were operating?"

The court ultimately adopted her view, although extending it to all counties, including those using ballots marked by pen and read by optical scanning. Many counties immediately began the effort, applying different standards and, in some cases, including over votes.

The United States Supreme Court stepped in only hours after the counting began, issuing an injunction to halt. Three days later, the justices overturned the Florida court's ruling, sealing Mr. Bush's election.

Now, it is clear that Bush is in the White House, or somewhere on his ranch in Texas. But had the Florida Supreme Court's directions been followed, neither Gore's nor Bush's wishes in the recount matter then Gore would have won.

It can be contested that had the Florida Supreme Court accepted Gore's recount request, he would have lost, and if the Florida Supreme Court had accepted Bush's request, Gore would have lost as well.

However, the media consortium showed that had "over votes" been counted, Gore would have won under any of the examination methods used. And this is what the Florida judge involved in the case was demanding and what the Florida Supreme Court was demanding, viz., a recount that INCLUDED over votes.

The issue has been what the results would have been had not the SCOUTUS intervened and had the Florida Supreme Court's order had been followed. In this case, Gore would have won.

These are irrefutable facts, and it is clear that the SCOUTUS handed the presidency to Bush, not the electorate.

And John Fund is still a man who lies and beats up defenseless women.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 05:31 pm
Mr. Fund has no credibility whatsoever, as kuvasz has pointed out. There used to be a site with audio files of him and his ex-girlfriends daughter who he was shtooping (and later beat up). Too bad those audio files aren't on the internet anymore.

http://www.americanpolitics.com/20010905BakerFund.html

Also amazing is that all the links on the aforementioned page are gone. I guess the whitewash of John Fund is now complete.

Amazing the power one has to rewrite history when one is a Republican scumbag.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 05:34 pm
Winning the Election - The Republican Way: Racism, Theft and Fraud in Florida

by Liam Scheff

When future historians want to know what happened to America in 2000, they'll read Greg Palast's The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. The book follows the paper trail of perjury, deception and incompetence left by the Bush family, and the billionaires who fund them, as they trample through the world - from mining disaster cover-ups to the California energy scandal to the pre-9/11 intelligence black-out that let a handful of Saudi terrorists slip past the NSA, FBI and CIA.

The book also uncovers inside documents on the IMF and World Bank, Pat Robertson?'s unholy money-schemes, and the co-opted US media that won?'t report what the rest of the world gets on the front page.

The book opens with the crime that keeps on stealing - the 2000 presidential election. George Bush lost the popular election by 500,000 votes, but won the electoral vote by winning hotly contested Florida, the state that tipped the scales, and the state where his brother Jeb is governor. His tiny 500-vote win there was accompanied by a torrent of hanging chads and unhappy voters, who claimed their votes were stolen. Last week Palast came to Boston to promote the new edition of The Best Democracy… I asked him exactly what he uncovered.

What really happened in Florida?

Five months before the election, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris ordered the removal of 57,700 names from Florida's voter rolls on grounds that they were felons. Voter rolls contain the names of all eligible, registered voters. If you're not on the list, you don't get to vote.

If you commit a felony in Florida, you lose your right to vote there, and you?'re "scrubbed" from the rolls. You become a non-citizen, like in the old Soviet Union. This is not the case in most other states; it's an uncivilized vestige of the Deep South.

My office carefully went through the scrub list and discovered that at minimum, 90.2 percent of the people were completely innocent of any crime - except for being African American. We didn't have to guess about that, because next to each voter's name was their race.

When I questioned Harris' office about the high percentage of African Americans on the scrub list, they responded, "Well, you know how many black people commit crimes."

But these people weren't felons, so why were they scrubbed?

The Florida Republicans wanted to block African Americans, who largely vote as Democrats, from voting. In 1999 they fired the company they were paying $5,700 to compile their felony "scrub" lists and replaced them with Database Technologies [DBT], who they paid $2.3 million to do the same job. [DBT is the Florida division of Choicepoint, a massive database company that does extensive work for the FBI.]

There are a lot of Joe Smiths in the Florida phonebook. DBT was hired to verify which Joe Smith was a felon and which was not. They were supposed to use their extensive databases to check credit cards, bank information, addresses and phone numbers, in addition to names, ages, and social security numbers. But they didn't. They didn't use one of their 1,200 databases to verify personal information, nor did they make a single phone call to verify the identity of scrubbed names.

So where did DBT get their data?

From the Internet. They went to 11 other states' Internet sites and took names off dirt-cheap. They scrubbed Florida voters whose names were similar to out-of-state felons. An Illinois felon named John Michaels could knock off Florida voter John, Johnny, Jonathan or Jon R. Michaels, or even J.R. Michaelson. DBT matched for race and gender, but names only had to be similar to a certain degree. Names could be reversed, and suffixes (Jr., Sr.) were ignored, but aliases were included. So the felon John "Buddy" Michaels could knock non-felon Michael Johns or Bud Johnson Jr. off the voter rolls. This happened again and again.

Although DBT didn't get names, birthdays or social security numbers right, they were very careful to match for race. A black felon named Mr. Green would only knock off a black Mr. Green, but not a single white Mr. Green. That's how DBT earned its $2.3 million.

Why didn't DBT use their own databases?

They didn't, because the state told them not to. Choicepoint vice-president James Lee was grilled by a Congressional committee, headed by Cynthia McKinney, and he admitted everything, but said DBT was following state directives. Florida state officials told DBT to knock off voters by incorrectly matching them with felons.

Congresswoman McKinney led this commission to her own peril. Choicepoint is in her Atlanta district. She was destroyed in the last election by fabricated quotes and a vicious propaganda campaign.

Is this the only way votes were stolen?

No. There were 8,000 Floridians who had committed misdemeanors, but were counted as felons. Their votes were scrubbed. Katherine Harris' office illegally scrubbed people who'd served time in other states, then moved to Florida, and Jeb Bush's office illegally barred these people from registering to vote at all.

The biggest wholesale theft occurred inside the voting booths in black rural counties. In Gadsden County, one of the blackest in the state, thousands of votes were simply thrown away. Gadsden used paper ballots which are read by an optical reader. Ballots with a single extra mark were considered "spoiled" and not counted. The buttons used to fill out the ballots were set up - with approval from Bush and Harris - to make votes appear unclear to the machine. One in eight ballots in Gadsden was voided by the state.

The same ballots were used in Tallahassee County, which is mostly white. There only one in 100 votes was "spoiled." What made the difference? In Tallahassee, ballots were read on the premises, and if they were marked incorrectly, voters were sent to revote until they got it right. In the black counties, the votes were trucked off immediately. There were no machines on site. Voters weren't told that their votes were spoiled, and they certainly weren't permitted to re-vote.

When Ted Koppel investigated voter theft in Florida, he concluded that blacks lost votes because they weren't well educated, and made mistakes that whites hadn?'t. He didn't even bother to ask how the machines were set up. This is the kind of reporting we get in America. In Britain, this story ran 3 weeks after the election, when Gore was still in race. It was in the papers and on TV. In the US, it was seven months before the Washington Post ran it, and then it was only a partial version. After the election, Gadsden County replaced its voting commissioner. In 2002 they only lost one in 500 votes. So you can say blacks in Gadsden got smarter in one way - they elected a black elections chief.

What happened to Choicepoint?

Bush is handing them the big contracts in the War on Terror; immigration reviews, DNA cataloging, airport profiling, and their voting systems are being rolled out across the country.

It wasn't reported in mainstream press, but the NAACP sued Harris and the gang for the black purge, and won. The state threw up its hands immediately and said, ?'You got us! We'll put these people back as soon as we can.' We're still waiting.

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=217&row=2
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 05:51 pm
So long as 'truth' seems so important these days, those slandering Mr. Fund on this thread should do better homework. All charges of any form of violence were thrown out of the court and he has subsequently proved to any reasonable person's satisfaction that the charges were false.

http://www.johnfund.com/
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 05:56 pm
Like I said:

"Whitewash."
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 06:41 pm
Sorta cute the way libs have convinced themselves the only way they can be defeated is through chicanery. The concept of actual voter rejection just never occurs to 'em.

http://www.federalreview.com/images/ev-map-9-21-04.gif http://www.pollingreport.com/images/SEPgen3.GIF
(Click either image for details)

Maybe this November, they'll begin to get the idea that in order to win, they've gotta come up with better candidates and better messages.


But they prolly won't.

http://home.adelphia.net/~thensley/images/demseal.jpg
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 10:05 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
So long as 'truth' seems so important these days, those slandering Mr. Fund on this thread should do better homework. All charges of any form of violence were thrown out of the court and he has subsequently proved to any reasonable person's satisfaction that the charges were false.

http://www.johnfund.com/


Truly, and OJ was found innocent as well....and Kobe, well that never happened either.

But OJ did it, and so did Kobe and so did that dirtbag Fund.

And Foxie, why so supportive of Fund, you and him been tossin' some salads when you're not posting?

BTW timber, nice pix of Louie Armstrong as a kid, I've been looking for it for a long time.

I note that neither of you engaged the inital topic of this thread with any cogent analysis or additional information to add and instead and in standard right wing style stayed as far away from the topic as your assclown maximum leader did from Viet Nam.

And John Fund? He's a lying dirtbag. But it appears, just your kind of lying dirtbag.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 10:42 pm
Um, it was Fund who wrote the article that started the thread, and he was immediately attacked. I disagree that he 'did it'. I think the preponderance of the evidence produced (and posted) makes it pretty clear that he didn't.

As far as his thesis in the article, I think he's right on target.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 11:07 pm
For the record, it would seem that Foxfyre and timberlandko are vociferously defending John Fund.

timberlandko:

I'd look at Harris and Pew poll. Despite the fact they both show a dead heat, they are historically the best barometers for a presidential election.

Like I've always said, it's gonna be real close.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 12:09 am
Oh, I'm on record across several threads here dealing with the Democrats' failed gambit to subvert the electoral process and gain by bench what they could not achieve by ballot.

Dookiestix wrote:
timberlandko:

I'd look at Harris and Pew poll. Despite the fact they both show a dead heat, they are historically the best barometers for a presidential election.


No need to be formal; "timber" works just fine. Oh, and as to which poll I look at, I look at 'em all, at the way they compare with one another sample-to-sample, the way they trend, and at a lot more besides. If you're interested in electoral probabilities, Here's A Thread On That

Oh, and over the past 7 decades, The Gallup Organization has demonstrated itself easily the most reliable of the individual polls, displaying a statistically significant lower mean aggregate error than have any of the others. On the other hand, futures trading, sportsbooks, and methods derived from econometric analysis have proven significantly more accurate indicators than have any of the polling organizations.
0 Replies
 
kuvasz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 12:39 am
First fox, one usually considers whether the source of information presented is by one whose personal life is itself trustworthy. You remember, kind of like how Right Wing Republicans treated Clinton.

Fund's remarks and dishonest use of the Times own disengenuous comments on the results of the consortium study: "A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year's presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward."

and ignore what the Florida Supreme Court had demanded, viz., not simply a "recount" but a very real first accounting of thousands of ballots that had never been counted in the first place AND overvotes that had been declared void. Those "overvotes" were to be counted by law. My remarks were taken from that article and the general conclusion was then and remains today that Gore would have won under almost every method used to count the votes.

If one peels away the mendacity of the New York Times efforts to enfranchise Bush as the nation's leader after the Sept 11, 2001 attack, by glossing over the details of the news consortium's study, it is revealed that if the SCOTUS had not intervened, Gore would have won.

The mendacity of the Times article is what I peeled away, hide the facts of the media consortium's detailed study which in fact, as I posted showed that Gore would have won had the Florida Court 's directions, been followed. The Times quote Fund provided , do NOT change what the study indicated, viz., following the Florida Court's directions, demanding both undervotes and over votes being tallied, had they been carried out, would have resulted in a gore victory.

The Times muddied the water with:

"CONTRARY TO WHAT MANY PARTISANS OF FORMER VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE HAVE CHARGED, THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT DID NOT AWARD AN ELECTION TO MR. BUSH THAT OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE BEEN WON BY MR. GORE. A CLOSE EXAMINATION OF THE BALLOTS FOUND THAT MR. BUSH WOULD HAVE RETAINED A SLENDER MARGIN OVER MR. GORE IF THE FLORIDA'S COURT ORDER TO RECOUNT MORE THAN 43,000 BALLOTS HAD NOT BEEN REVERSED BY THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT"

is blatantly a non-sequiter, BECAUSE that is not the only thing that the Florida Court's decison was demanding. It also demanded that both undervotes and overvotes, as by law, be counted.

the Times did not state that in the afore quoted paragraph, but only mentioned the "recount." it did not even mention until 10 paragraphs later the true facts, viz., that votes were still UNCOUNTED and their tally would be included by the Florida Court's decision.

TITLE IX, CHAPTER 101 FLORIDA STATUTES

101.5615
Recounts and election contests.--Recounts and election contests shall be conducted as provided for in this code. The automatic tabulating equipment shall be tested prior to the recount or election contest, as provided in s. 101.5612, if the official ballots or ballot cards are recounted on the automatic tabulating equipment. Each duplicate ballot shall be compared with the original ballot to ensure the correctness of the duplicate.

101.5614 Canvass of returns.--
(5) ……If any paper ballot is damaged or defective so that it cannot be counted properly by the automatic tabulating equipment, the ballot shall be counted manually at the counting center by the canvassing board. The totals for all such ballots or ballot cards counted manually shall be added to the totals for the several precincts or election districts. No vote shall be declared invalid or void if there is a clear indication of the intent of the voter as determined by the canvassing board…..

101.011 Voting by paper ballot.-- (4) If the elector marks more names than there are persons to be elected to an office, or if it is impossible to determine the elector's choice, his or her ballot shall not be counted for the office.

Second, What Fund said was a disengenuous attempt to lie about the true facts nor did the non-sequiters of data he threw down add up to a substantiated basis for his thesis. They just do not describe the reality of the consortium's conclusions. I posted the NY Times link that Fund cites to substantiate my own views. Did Fund, or you or timberland for that matter do so that others could actually read what Fund cited?

No, he did not. No, you did not. Fund cut and pasted a single sentence from a 1,000 plus word article that had qualifiers both before and after the statement he cites as his evidence which undermined the very thrust of his argument.

Fund's efforts in this affair are post-facto attempts to re-write history. Your ringing endorsement of Fund is akin to an idiot shouting out "What he said!" in a lispy voice when agreeing with a penny arcade barker and is laughable were it not so goddamned illustrative of the willful ignorance and gullibility of so many of those on the right.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:27 am
kuvasz, in all respect, partner, you have no idea what I may or may not have read. Cutting to the chase, and reducing to a few words what I've posted on any number of threads here in the past, from what I have read, which includes the avvailable transcripts of and decisions in the pertinant legal actions, by existing law the Democrats proceded with an invalidly founded legal challenge, a challenge premised on multiple juridical errors, a challenge supportable neither by statute state or federal nor by any established precedent, thereby dooming their pursuit from the start. Further, by preponderance of evidence including independent recounts, exit polling, the results of other contests presented on the same ballot, and both pre-and-post election opinion polling, the Democrats contention that their party's candidate suffered from undercount is absurd on its face.

I know, and accept, you and others do not see things quite that way. In that this is a "matter of opinion", it is to be expected divergence of opinion will exist. In that the Democrats' failed to prevail either by ballot or by bench, it is to be expected their opinion would be at odds with what, in the end, contemporary official or subsequent independent recounts, the results of other same-ballot contests and initiatives, and any and all opinion and exit polls aside, is the only operative opinion, that opinion being the opinion as decided and rendered by the majority of the Justices comprising The Supreme Court of The United States.

I am confident the overall results of this election will reveal unambiguously that The Electorate endorses neither the message nor the candidates put forth by The Democratic Party. I do not expect that affirmation will sit well with The Democrats, nor do I really anticipate The Democrats will learn from and profit by the lesson thereby delivered, but rather I fully expect the party and its advocates to continue laying blame for their persistent and continuing failure to engage The Electorate on imagined external conditions as opposed to very real internal misapprehensions and shortcomings.

In sum, The Democrats do not present an alternative seen by The Electorate as preferable to that presented by The Republicans. The cause of The Democrats' decline of influence over the past decade and more is not any "flaw in the system" nor of any skullduggery on the part of The Republicans, but rather entirely is a matter exclusively of The Democrats' own making.

You want "Stupid"? I'll give you "Stupid". "Stupid" is to persist with a repeatedly demonstrated inneffective course of action in expectation of improved result. That's what "Stupid" is.

The Democrats lost in 2000. The Democrats lost in 2002. The Democrats lost in 2003. They should get over it. The Democrats are about to lose again. Big time. They should get ready for it. They should, but probally won't, recognize and address the real causes of their woes.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:46 am
Quote:
You want "Stupid"? I'll give you "Stupid". "Stupid" is to persist with a repeatedly demonstrated inneffective course of action in expectation of improved result. That's what "Stupid" is.


I'm saving this for later...
0 Replies
 
 

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