Revel-Most blacks as you call them are raised much like your own and are able to distinguish between what is crap and what is reality.
Lash-No, they're not raised like mine. There is a distinct cultural difference between the white families I know and the black ones. I used to think we were very close to the same. I learned differently from experience. There are belief systems and a shared cultural reality that white people just don't have.
Revel-That is a very telling statement and one I know from my experience is not true.
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It was true in my experience. I had thought the only differences between white people and black people was skin-color. Over a period of five years, I worked with predominately black people (about 500 employees), went into their homes, met and got to know their families, partied with, mourned with, became family with--not a small number of people. I found out, while black people have a lot in common with whites, they also have (generally--ALL the black families I knew shared this distinction) a black culture of shared beliefs, not shared by the white community. Or, are you suggesting that slavery and segregation had no affect on the black community?
I don't characterize it as a bad thing--just different.
Your experience does not trump, or negate mine.
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I was not aiming to trump your experience, just telling you that the following statement that you made previously is not true.
Quote:But, if they are raised in houses, where this type of propaganda is force fed to them on a daily basis--along with "the Republicans want you back in the feilds", and "you'll never get anything you don't take"--this has a profound influence on people.
In the above quote you was not just pointing out that there are cultrual differences and that blacks had a history that was differerent than the white's who enslaved them. So the issue of whose experience trumps whose is not only silly but moot.
Revel-If a well dressed black person goes into a high jelwerly store, do you honestly claim that they are treated the same as a well dressed white person that comes in?
Lash-And a poorly dressed white person would not be treated as well as a well dressed black person...Yes, there is a hierarchical pecking order that sucks. We all have our place--unfair, yes.
Revel-I disagree with you there, a poor dressed white person would be treated better than a well dressed black person. The black person would be assumed to be a drug dealer or something.
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Lash--I don't think clothes salespeople are playing moral guessing games about how patrons earn their money. Call girl's money spends. Ken Lay had no problem spending his money... Poorly dressed people of any color are treated more suspiciously than well-dressed people of any color.
The United States pays more per capita for education than any other country with increasingly poor results. Lack of funding is not the problem, I think, but lack of will to educate rather than indoctrinate students. Never has this been more apparent than among the black community aided by primarily Democrats with affirmative action and other 'preferential treatment' programs.
Please read the following article thoughtfully. In my opinion, it speaks the truth and coupled with assessment by other brave reformers such as Bill Cosby's recent efforts, could rectify the problems within a generation.
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/articles/04/prognosis.html
Revel, I don't have time to hunt up the stats, but I am fairly certain the USA spends more both in gross and per capita on education than any other country. Here's an article to think about until I have time to find the hard stats:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/819020/posts
Quote:Edited to add this comment: The Bush administration is spending more on education than it is spending on defense. This last August, I believe, (recently anyway), the Dept of Education put out a bulletin admonishing the states to spend the money they had received or return it. There were millions of dollars out there among the states that had not even been used.
You would be wrong, just ask most any black person and they will tell you that they are treated differently when they go into a nice store no matter how well they are dressed.
*snip*
Although just because some blacks still think about their history which does still continue in some form still today does not mean that what they think about certain things is not true.
revel wrote:You would be wrong, just ask most any black person and they will tell you that they are treated differently when they go into a nice store no matter how well they are dressed.
*snip*
Although just because some blacks still think about their history which does still continue in some form still today does not mean that what they think about certain things is not true.
Am I wrong in thinking that Lash IS black?
Bi-Polar: Care to add a few specifics ... about that hotbed of racial tensions?
<Sorry about your sh!tty neighborhood.>
. . .In today's climate, too many teachers think they are doing black students a favor by feeding them grievances from the past and telling them how they are oppressed in the present -- and how their future is blocked by white racism. These are the kinds of friends who do more damage than enemies.
Why endure all the hard work, self-discipline and self-denial that a first-rate education requires if The Man is going to stop you from getting anywhere anyway? People who have been pushing this line for years are now suddenly surprised and dismayed to discover that many black students across the country regard academic striving as "acting white."
Many young blacks likewise regard speaking correct English, or even observing the rules of polite society, as "acting white." White liberals often cheer them on in their self-destructive behavior or at least "understand" them and defend them. . .
http://www.townhall.com/editor/
Revel, do the math. Per capita is per capita whether you have six people in school or sixty million people in school. The Bush administration is spending more money per capita than any previous administration. That's a fact. And revenues are up in all fifty states. Did you miss the part that the states haven't even spent all the money that has been allocated? The problem is not money but how the money is allocated and spent and that is not a federal matter but one involving your own local school board. That's where you put the pressure, not on the president.
If we can break the tyranny of the NEA and get back to educating instead of indoctrinating students, and adopt some common sense on how to deal with 'special' students, we can restore the U.S. education system to its prior excellence. Recently Washington DC was spending the most per capita of any school district and turning out some of the worst test scores. However some states spending the least per capita are turning out some of the best test scores. Why? Because they are simply educating better. That's what we want to shoot for.
15 states fight funding lawsuits; 10 more threatened
Tuesday, August 17, 2004 Posted: 11:14 AM EDT (1514 GMT)
"There is a problem with school funding across the country," said Education Commission of the States policy analyst Mike Griffith. "People are really upset. They're saying 'The only way we can get the money we need is to sue the state."'
Funding problems are nothing new for public schools, but an economic downturn coupled with costly new mandates tied to the federal "No Child Left Behind" legislation, which set new educational benchmarks, have stretched finances thin.
Add to that the fact that estimated enrollment has hit a record 48 million students this fall, and that a growing number of students don't speak English or have other educational challenges, and it's a formula for a funding nightmare.
"If we're going to make sure that those kids succeed, meeting the new mission will be costly," said Bruce Hunter, public policy analyst for the American Association of School Administrators.
Polls ahead of this year's presidential election show that education ranks high as a voter concern, and policy and economic experts, including Federal Reserve Chief Alan Greenspan, have warned of a marked decline in the quality of the U.S. educational system.
Most of the funding burden for public schools is borne by state and local taxpayers while federal aid makes up on average about 8 percent.
How the money is distributed varies widely by state and even by district, depending on how much in property taxes is generated, whether taxpayers are willing to pay additional local taxes earmarked for schools and the size and demographic of the student populations.
Further complicating funding formulas is the fact that money generated by taxes in wealthier areas is often diverted to poor districts to try to equalize resources.
Critics say money distributed unfairly
As costs outrun revenues, critics charge the money is distributed unfairly and that it simply is not enough.
Some small, rural and inner-city districts complain they can't afford textbooks or air conditioning, while some suburban districts are laying off librarians and art teachers.
In Kansas, a frustrated district court judge sought this summer to scare legislators into action by ordering a halt to all state funding of schools until lawmakers come up with a funding formula that is fair and adequate.
The judge, who was hearing a case brought by several small districts, said undisputed studies show the Kansas system is underfunded by more than $1 billion. The ruling was appealed and the Kansas Supreme Court takes up the matter Aug. 30.
"By and large, all districts are feeling squeezed by the funding that is available," said Ann Kindling, one of the attorneys involved in the Kansas case.
A similar lawsuit went to trial last week in Texas where more than 300 school districts are claiming the system there is not providing children with an adequate education.
In New York, a State Supreme Court judge has ordered the state to revamp its funding system and come up with an additional $4 billion to $10 billion in school aid over the next three to five years. The judge on Aug. 3 named a panel of special "referees" to come up with a plan.
Further funding lawsuits are being waged in Maryland, Ohio, and Alaska. In Alaska, parents, school districts and the teachers' union filed a lawsuit Aug. 9 against the state alleging its education funding is inadequate.
Back in Kansas, the Shawnee Mission school district is perhaps a textbook case. Once considered one of the highest-achieving and wealthiest districts in the state, it has seen declining enrollment in recent years, and elementary school children there no longer have Spanish teachers or full-time guidance counselors.
With those and other cuts, the district reduced core spending by $23 million over a four-year period. But when the district presented its 2004/05 budget to its board Aug. 9, the shortfall still totaled more than $3.3 million.
"It just becomes very frustrating," Shawnee Mission budget manager Tim Rooney said from his office in Overland Park, Kansas. "Our goal is to try to reduce as much as we can as far away from the classroom as we can. But we're running out of options."
Washington, D.C. -- The picture of American education is clear. Investments in public schools are not keeping pace with the needs of our children, according to an education funding report released today by the National Education Association (NEA).
Last fall, nearly 400,000 additional children entered the nation's classrooms, representing the 19th consecutive rise in school enrollment. Yet, annual school revenues and spending are stagnant, as is the average salary necessary to attract an estimated 16,000 qualified teachers needed for this wave of students.
The report, Rankings & Estimates: Rankings of the States 2003 and Estimates of School Statistics 2004, shows slight increases from the previous year in the average expenditure per student enrolled in a K-12 school, the average revenue that communities collect for school expenses and the average salary of a public school teacher.
The report, which analyzes data from state education departments, suggests that troubled times may lie ahead.
State and local governments -- in the midst of budget crises and struggles to comply with the rigid demands of the so-called No Child Left Behind law -- still provide the lion's share of education funding. On average, revenues from those state and local coffers have shown little growth over the past year or over the decade. The average teacher salary has not kept pace with inflation. Since 1993, salaries have actually declined in a third of the country.
President Reg Weaver, on behalf of 2.7 million NEA educators, said the annual study begs an answer to two important questions: Can spending keep up with students' needs, and are we focusing our limited resources in the best areas?
"Public schools are the cornerstone of our democracy," he said. "We must make them places where students can-and will-succeed. Funding is fundamental to reform."
Weaver added that financial sanctions, expensive bureaucracy and mandatory testing required by the federal law threaten to drain scarce state and local school resources and hinder the ability of public schools to keep quality educators and maintain vital student services.
"Too often, educators are asked to fulfill an important mission, but they are not given the support and compensation to remain in the profession," Weaver said. "It is unrealistic to expect student achievement to improve while cash-strapped states and local districts are forced to lay off public school employees or eliminate enriching classes and activities."
NEA continues to praise the goals of No Child Left Behind, but called on policymakers to support reforms with proven track records: reduced class sizes, early childhood education, parental and community involvement, professional development for educators and after-school programs. The Rankings and Estimates report has presented statistics on school spending, revenues and staff salaries since the late 1960s.
Key Facts from this year's report:
National:
The average expenditure per-student in K-12 public schools was $7,875 in 2002-03, a 4.6 percent rise over the previous year. In comparison, spending for this school year, 2003-04, was estimated to increase by 3.6 percent (Table 5.3).
The average public school teacher salary for 2002-03 was $45,891, a 2.8 percent increase over the previous year. In comparison, the average salary for this school year, 2003-04, was estimated to increase by 2.0 percent (Table 3.6).
The average local, state and federal government revenue per K-12 student in fall enrollment, 2001-02 was $8,718. Total revenues for public schools increased 4.3 percent in 2002-03 from the previous year. Totals for 2003-04 were estimated to increase just 4.9 percent from the previous year (Tables F-1 and 4.1)
State:
States with the highest per-pupil spending for 2002-03: New York ($11,588), Connecticut ($11,378), New Jersey ($11,103), Massachusetts ($10,353) and Delaware ($10,270) (Table H-11).
Lowest per-pupil spending for 2002-03: Utah ($4,907), Arizona ($5,197), Alabama ($5,418), Arkansas ($5,789) and Mississippi ($5,822) (Table H-11).
States with the highest average teacher salary for 2002-03: California ($56,283), Connecticut ($55,367) and New Jersey ($54,158) (Table C-11).
Lowest average teacher salary for 2002-03: South Dakota ($32,416), North Dakota ($33,869) and Mississippi ($34,555) (Table C-11).
Average teacher salaries declined in 18 states over the past 10 years in real, inflation-adjusted dollars. The largest declines were Alaska (-16.6%), Connecticut (-10.3%), Kansas (-9.9%), New York (-7.7%),
Wisconsin (-6.7%) and Vermont (-6.7%) (Table C-14).
The full report, "Rankings & Estimates: Rankings of the States 2003 and Estimates of School Statistics 2004," (PDF, 127 pages, 1 MB) is available online.
May 26, 2004
Despite the twin challenges of war and economic recovery, the President's budget this year maintains or expands funding for virtually all of our nation's education priorities. President Bush's budget this year proposes far more for education than the last budgets proposed and signed by President Clinton.
Under Republican leadership in the House, federal funding for education has more than doubled over the past six years. Discretionary appropriations for the Department of Education have climbed from $23 billion in FY 1996 to $49 billion this year - an increase of 113 percent.\\
http://edworkforce.house.gov/issues/107th/endgamekit/fsedbudget.htm
BPB just laid out an excellent example of rising above one's circumstances. My own story and that of my sibling would suggest, to some, that we should have been failures if not criminals. My theory is we all have to deal with something, and its up to us what we make of the hand we are dealt.
Quote:. . .In today's climate, too many teachers think they are doing black students a favor by feeding them grievances from the past and telling them how they are oppressed in the present -- and how their future is blocked by white racism. These are the kinds of friends who do more damage than enemies.
Why endure all the hard work, self-discipline and self-denial that a first-rate education requires if The Man is going to stop you from getting anywhere anyway? People who have been pushing this line for years are now suddenly surprised and dismayed to discover that many black students across the country regard academic striving as "acting white."
Many young blacks likewise regard speaking correct English, or even observing the rules of polite society, as "acting white." White liberals often cheer them on in their self-destructive behavior or at least "understand" them and defend them. . .
http://www.townhall.com/editor/
Quote:Despite the twin challenges of war and economic recovery, the President's budget this year maintains or expands funding for virtually all of our nation's education priorities. President Bush's budget this year proposes far more for education than the last budgets proposed and signed by President Clinton.
Under Republican leadership in the House, federal funding for education has more than doubled over the past six years. Discretionary appropriations for the Department of Education have climbed from $23 billion in FY 1996 to $49 billion this year - an increase of 113 percent.\\
http://edworkforce.house.gov/issues/107th/endgamekit/fsedbudget.htm
