Religion Is For The Weak And Ignorant Masses

Quote:

G-d told the Jews that buying non-Jewish slaves would raise their moral fiber

Raise moral fiber by engaging slavery? How does that work? Or is it just a matter of faith?

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Frank--

How do you know God talked of how to treat a slave BEFORE the Jews had slaves.

Slaves have been owned since the beginning of time.

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blueSky wrote:

Quote:
G-d told the Jews that buying non-Jewish slaves would raise their moral fiber

Raise moral fiber by engaging slavery? How does that work? Or is it just a matter of faith?

Raise the moral fiber of the bond servant.
The individual was a slave with no rights whatsoever in the nation he was bought from - he would have been previously treated with indifferent cruelty.
Under Jewish Law, he had to be treated better than a family member, and he had to be educated into his moral duties and obligations to G-d.
Yes, his moral being would have been elevated - greatly. Smile

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I'm still not sure why folks don't get this idea that Moishe has been trying to explain. It is the antecedent to our modern work ethic. Regardless of race, religion or creed, you will be treated well, and 'elevated', let's say for argument's sake, both spiritually and financially, i.e. good treatment, good pay and the chance for advancement, which would both feed your family and make you feel better as a person.

Let's take a look at the modern world. I can't say that there are no evil Jewish bosses, I have known some. It's become a stereotype really. However, the scripture does say that this is the wrong way to treat people in your employ, and to clarify, 'slaves' were technically employees. While on the subject of stereotypes, I wonder how many non-Jews feel a little like a 'slave' working for a Jewish boss, just on instinct. Hmm....<stirs pot>

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Quote:

'slaves' were technically employees

This is a huge leap. Employees are slaves? I don't know how you get this perception, but there are lawyers ready to sue if you a spot a slave like that.

How can we know for sure that those non-jewish were really slaves to begin with? If slavery in jewish form elevates moral fiber, why not slave some of own people? Why not make them better than they already were?Why does god wants to discriminate jews from betterment?

We say we 'liberate' a country when we actually may run over and rule them. How can one be sure that it is not some form of rationalization of something unfair? Happens all the time.

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Lash wrote:

Frank--

How do you know God talked of how to treat a slave BEFORE the Jews had slaves.

Slaves have been owned since the beginning of time.

I don't know.

I am simply reading the Bible...and the mythology contained in it.

The Bible expressedly tells us that Moses got all these messages from the god of the Bible while travelling from Egypt...where they had just escaped from captivity...and that Moses never even lived to see the Hebrews in their Promised Land.

If the Bible is correct...the Hebrews were just escaping from slavery themselves...and certainly did not themselves have slaves already.

Of course, the other injunctions supposedly given to Moses during the trek from Egypt to the Promised Land...indicate that a thriving Hebrew civilization was already flourishing....and that the story almost certainly is just myth.

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cavfancier wrote:

I'm still not sure why folks don't get this idea that Moishe has been trying to explain.

Because it is pure rationalization, Cav...that's why.

Rationalizations on the part of Moishe...and on the part of the many Jews who have striven over the centuries to make sense of the mythology of the Bible.

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NO GOD WORTHY OF BEING WORSHIPPED EVER TOLD ANYONE THAT IT IS OKAY TO OWN AND TRADE IN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS...SLAVES!

I can understand humans inventing gods...and I can understand humans putting notions of that sort into the mouth of the gods they invent...

...but to try to rationalize that position is an insult to any GOD that may actually exist.

The god of the Bible, folks, is an insult to any GOD that happens to exist.

I know that must bother, annoy...or whatever...those of you who fear that god...but it is so.

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so mote it be

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Frank Apisa wrote:

NO GOD WORTHY OF BEING WORSHIPPED EVER TOLD ANYONE THAT IT IS OKAY TO OWN AND TRADE IN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS...SLAVES!

I can understand humans inventing gods...and I can understand humans putting notions of that sort into the mouth of the gods they invent...

...but to try to rationalize that position is an insult to any GOD that may actually exist.

The god of the Bible, folks, is an insult to any GOD that happens to exist.

I know that must bother, annoy...or whatever...those of you who fear that god...but it is so.

So let it be written, so let it be done....

Well, Frank, I grok not how loudly shouting your opinion validates your argument.
What you are proclaiming is that your Belief system of Faith does not allow that buying a person out of slavery and elevating them to be a member of your household could be a possible moral system given to the Jewish people.
The books have got to be cooked. Ain't no way G-d could come up with that one. No sirree bob.
It's just all one Big Fat Fable and the Fat Fablers who Fable 'Em.
Okay.
I have no problem with your opinions.
I do, however, believe you are wrong.
And, oddly enough, I believed I proved it -
Based on the Evidence You asked for - eh wot? Shocked

Maybe you could offer me contradictory evidence. Or mebbee not.
But, I offered you water. Don't be runnin' out of the temple screamin' because everybody's nekkid..... Very Happy

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blueSky wrote:

Quote:
'slaves' were technically employees

This is a huge leap. Employees are slaves? I don't know how you get this perception, but there are lawyers ready to sue if you a spot a slave like that.

How can we know for sure that those non-jewish were really slaves to begin with? If slavery in jewish form elevates moral fiber, why not slave some of own people? Why not make them better than they already were?Why does god wants to discriminate jews from betterment?

We say we 'liberate' a country when we actually may run over and rule them. How can one be sure that it is not some form of rationalization of something unfair? Happens all the time.

Hey, Blue Sky, only blue sky....
If you are interested, I suggest you re-read this section:

Quote:

"The basic understanding of Torah Law is that no Jew could make any other human being into a slave. He could only acquire, by purchase, people who, by then universally accepted Jewish Law, were already slaves. But this transference into the property of a Jew was the one and only salvation for anybody who, according to the prevailing laws of the nations, was stamped as a slave. These non-Jews were completely unprotected and liable to the most inhumane treatment in other nations and, even when emancipated, wherever he was, he was looked upon as still belonging to the slave class, or as a freed-slave (Negroes, then blacks in America is an example). Therefore, the home of the Jew was, to them, a home of freedom. There, he was protected by law against mishandling, the law courts were accessible to him, and - this cannot be sufficiently valued, - he had the option if he wished (Talmud, Tractate Yebamos, 48b) of joining the Jewish bond with G-d in conjunction with the rest of the household. He would then become like the children, a member of the home, and take part, ike the children, in the eating of the Pesach offering which constituted Israel into the People of G-d."
-Rav Refuel Shimshon Hirsch - (one of the Gadolim, ((Great Men)) of the 19th century.)

And, go back and read the rest of what I wrote.
I was trying to be specific to the question, but the main thrust of Jewish Law is that this is Not about Owning Slaves.
It is about elevating those that already are slaves of other nations to a higher spiritual level.
You may not want to believe that, but that has nothing to do with me.

All I am offering here folks, is the research done by Jews for the last several thousand years on these questions.
If you could understand the reasoning before you reject the datum, this would be a good thing.
Smile

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
NO GOD WORTHY OF BEING WORSHIPPED EVER TOLD ANYONE THAT IT IS OKAY TO OWN AND TRADE IN OTHER HUMAN BEINGS...SLAVES!

I can understand humans inventing gods...and I can understand humans putting notions of that sort into the mouth of the gods they invent...

...but to try to rationalize that position is an insult to any GOD that may actually exist.

The god of the Bible, folks, is an insult to any GOD that happens to exist.

I know that must bother, annoy...or whatever...those of you who fear that god...but it is so.

So let it be written, so let it be done....

Well, Frank, I grok not how loudly shouting your opinion validates your argument.
What you are proclaiming is that your Belief system of Faith does not allow that buying a person out of slavery and elevating them to be a member of your household could be a possible moral system given to the Jewish people.

C'mon, Moishe...we are not talking about "buying a person out of slavery and elevating them..."...

...we are talking about the god of the Bible telling Moses that the Hebrews could buy, sell, and own slaves. SLAVES....not members of the household. Slaves that could be beaten (the god tells Moses how much slaves could be beaten...and when a slaves death due to beating matters)...and families broken up.

Quote:

The books have got to be cooked. Ain't no way G-d could come up with that one. No sirree bob.
It's just all one Big Fat Fable and the Fat Fablers who Fable 'Em.
Okay.
I have no problem with your opinions.
I do, however, believe you are wrong.
And, oddly enough, I believed I proved it -
Based on the Evidence You asked for - eh wot?

You haven't proved anything...but that doesn't seem to stop you from declaring that you have.

It is amusing.

Quote:

Maybe you could offer me contradictory evidence.

I've already done that...by quoting the words of the god of the Bible.

But I can see that having the truth shown to you is disturbing you...and I really don't want to do that. Perhaps you shouldn't listen to me. Perhaps you should stick your head back in the sand...and continue to "believe" the myths.

If, however, you want to discuss this further...let's do it without the silly protestations of proofs that you haven't offered. Debate like a man.

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Hi Frank,

I apologize for the late reply. I am currently involved on at least 10 forums of various nature so I get a bit behind at times in my responses. Please don't think I have bowed out or rudely left, rather I am just running late.

Now on to your reply.

You wrote:

Quote:

Gimme a break. We didn't agree on anything of the sort.

You asked if I could think of a God greater than the god of the Bible...and I am giving a few hypotheticals.

I have no idea if the universe is a creation or not...AND MY VERY STRONG GUESS IS, NEITHER DO YOU!

Frank, the "hypothetical" here is if you, as you correctly stated, could create a god greater then the one revealed in Scripture. I asked how your god would deal with "creation"? You replied that your god would simply create it, correct?

Hence we agree that the universe (in this hypothetical) is created.

As for my personal belief regarding the universe, I hold that the universe speaks of design, intelligence and purpose. I do not believe that time+chance = life.

You wrote, in response to me asking if your god would use a pre-existing material or create ex nihilo -and- if your god is outside of time and space:

Quote:

This is a hypothetical...let the god do whatever you want it to do.

While this may be a hypothetical it is a valid question regarding the abilities of your god. The G-d revealed in Scripture spoke the universe into existence, hence the G-d of Scripture is outside of time and space. If G-d had used a "material" which was pre-existing then it would bring into question, perhaps, the Eternalness and Omnipotence of G-d. This then would further handicap G-d as being Sovereign.

To my statement/question below:

Since your god would not be "offended" by anything humans would do your god is a moral god. This then raises the question, could a moral god really take a "hands off" position regarding his creation?

You responded with:

Quote:

Why not? Do you want to limit what a god can do?

My point here was that you qualified your god as being a moral god because you wrote that he would not be "offended" by anything humans would do. You are a "moral" person and father (perhaps?) and you would not just sit by as your children went morally bankrupt. You would seek to intervene I am sure. Your god must be greater than you for no effect can be greater than its cause, hence your gods morals would not allow him to just stand in the shadows.

You wrote:

Quote:

Try to be reasonable and logical.

I believe I am

Thank you,
Tony

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Quote:

I've already done that...by quoting the words of the god of the Bible.

But I can see that having the truth shown to you is disturbing you...and I really don't want to do that. Perhaps you shouldn't listen to me. Perhaps you should stick your head back in the sand...and continue to "believe" the myths.

If, however, you want to discuss this further...let's do it without the silly protestations of proofs that you haven't offered. Debate like a man.

Honey pie, you could not disturb me. Been there, done that.
You asked for evidence based on the "bible."
I offered you such.
Now, I ask not that you accept my Torah.
Reject it. S'okay. Not my business.
But you want to tell me that Your "G-d's Word" is bigger than My "G-d's Word?"
That is amusing.

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Look, Mo, you may think you're pretty slick ...
you presumably "elevate" the enslaved by buying them from presumably WORSE masters than yourselves!

We're not buying it.

Somehow or another, "Western" Culture has evolved to view Life Bondage as a heinous practice.
(We even allow Divorce!)

I guess we're just more "Liberal" than those ancient people on t'other side of the pond.
... although we DO have a "Conservative" element among which are some that would countenance the restoration of the Slave State, and leap to exploit it.

Perhaps they think: "After all, owning slaves can't be THAT bad... people in the BIBLE did it!"

"A Lifetime in Service is a NOBLE Thing!" (saith the Masters... )

Slavery can help to solve those pesky immigraton issues that face those who require cheap laborers...
The Guatemalan Domestics could avoid all that Green Card hassle... consent to be a slave and you get instant citizenship!
(Hmnn... okay, your citizenship is void if you ever leave your "Host Family"...
"Just sign here, Rosita...")

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Amen!!!

to what Voltoza states in original post

Smile

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if weak and frightened discribes a man who is willing to be staked upon a cross and die for man kind, then i sure as hell wish i was weak and frightened...

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The author has not necessarily described the putative Hey-Zeus as weak and frightened, but rather the adherents to that particular set of fairy tales. That Palestine was crawling with Joshuahs, some of whom may have touted themselves as rabbis, two thousand years ago, is not to be doubted. That one of them was the story book character retailed as Jesus in the heavily and selectively edited "gospels" which have been allowed to survive by the exlusive hierarchy of the christian churches 1800 years ago does not mean that any of that story is historical truth.

I reacted initially to this thread with contempt for the idea embodied herein. My point of view has not changed. Some adherents of any religion are weak and frightened, and for them the religion is a suprstitious solace. Some adherents, despite any evidence, or no evidence, persist in such beliefs. I have not objection to anything which i am not forced to swallow.

One of the bills of goods which i do not intend to accept uncritically, like some slack-jawed yokel, is the entire fabrication of "Passion Week," including a massive earthquake which no one else in the ancient world seems to have noticed. From the bullsh*t story of a census of non-Roman citizens[/u] at the beginning of the fairy tale, to the rending of the curtain in the temple from an earthquake which never took place, the four officially authorized "gospels" are filled with contraditctions, implausible absurdities and outright lies. It is possible for people who do not subscribe to such nonsense to quietly accept that others do, without branding them as "ignorant masses," which term is one of a disgusting elitism to which i do not subscribe. That doesn't mean that those of us so inclined however, are obliged to swallow stories of a messiah willingly dying by cruxifiction because " . . . God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son." Unless and until anyone provides irrefutable contemporary evidence of these events, and does so without reference to texts of Josephus, heavily edited by christians--and no copies contemporary to Josephus are now existant which show the passages christians tout--no one is obliged to believe that "died on the cross for you and men" claptrap.

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I suspect Moishe is better off declaring victory and walking out...than continuing the discussion.

He thinks that because Jewish scholars for centuries have realized the absurdity of "the Word"...and have devised elaborate rationalizations for the parts that are absurd...

...we should simply "accept" those rationalizations.

The Jewish scholars are exceptional people, but I no more accept the rationalizations than I accept the word.

As for the slavery issue...two things still remain out there that have not been dealt with.

1) The injuctions about slavery were given by Moses...which means they were given before the Hebrews, supposedly newly escaped from captivity in Egypt, even set up their community. Supposedly they had no slaves...and there was no need to suggest that they start possessing them. Consequently, there was no need for lessons in how to treat them.

A better explanation for all this is that the Hebrews were already sited...already possessed slaves...and that the mythology simply accounted for that fact.

2) If these slaves were simply being purchased to make them free, as Moishe and the Jewish scholars want us to blindly accept, why does the god tell them that they can treat the slaves as chattels...and pass them along to sons as an inheritance....and keep them slaves forever?

Jews are no less wedded to the mythology than Christians.

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And of course...we've got these other two passages to deal with:

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you." Deuteronomy 20:10

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9

Nice god!!!!

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Religion Is For The Weak And Ignorant Masses

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