1
   

Religion Is For The Weak And Ignorant Masses

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 09:11 pm
I never met a man that relied on Boolean to tie his shoes nor milk his cow. Have you? Do you look to the physicist to explain the rainbow or can you see it without mathematics?
0 Replies
 
Voltoza
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2004 11:18 pm
dyslexia wrote:
yes I do.


Why?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 08:59 am
TonyO wrote:


In response you wrote:

Quote:
"My God" (your words, not mine) would simply create the world. Period.


Ok, we agree that the universe is created.


Gimme a break. We didn't agree on anything of the sort.

You asked if I could think of a God greater than the god of the Bible...and I am giving a few hypotheticals.

I have no idea if the universe is a creation or not...AND MY VERY STRONG GUESS IS, NEITHER DO YOU!


Quote:

Does your god use pre-existing material or ex nihilo? Is your god outside of time and space, transcendent?


This is a hypothetical...let the god do whatever you want it to do.


Quote:
Quote:
As far as "morals" are concerned, the God would not be offended by any of the things humans do. The God would simply keep a hands off position with regard to humans -- and allow humans to determine for themselves what they would tolerate and what they would not.


Since your god would not be "offended" by anything humans would do your god is a moral god. This then raises the question, could a moral god really take a "hands off" position regarding his creation?


Why not? Do you want to limit what a god can do?


Quote:
Also you take offense at the G-d of Scripture and His "morals" now, what makes you think man left to his own would be any better morally?


Well, since I am pretty sure man has been left to his own morality anyway (the god you are talking about is almost certainly mythical)...I think man would be as moral as he is moral.

Quote:

Quote:
Where did I ever tell you that you must reject God or gods?


When you stated this:

Quote:
I have carefully read what the god of the Bible says and does...and I reject that any God (Capital "G" God) would say and do.


Try to be reasonable and logical.

Simply because I say I reject the god does not mean I am telling you you must reject the god. Do whatever you want.

Quote:
You wrote:

Quote:
No...but can you show me any reason why the god of the Bible decided to give these injunctions if he did not intend for people to use them?


G-d, I am fairly sure, had every intention of people using them but perhaps the "fear" of it being carried out is why it may have never been used.


Huh?????

He gave the injuctions because he knew people would carry them out!!!

C'mon.



Quote:
You wrote:

Quote:
Whether I or you know of an incident where it was done is not nearly as important as the fact that if it were done...your god would not be offended by it.


I offer this as a rebuttal

Jonah 4:2-11
2 He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.

3 "Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life."

4 The LORD said, "Do you have good reason to be angry?"

5 Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city.

6 So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant.

7 But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it withered.

8 When the sun came up God appointed a scorching east wind, and the sun beat down on Jonah's head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, "Death is better to me than life."

9 Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?" And he said, "I have good reason to be angry, even to death."

10 Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.

11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"
NASU


You might just as well have offered the Star Spangled Banner in rebuttal...because this is no rebuttal at all.



Good discussion.

You take care, now.
0 Replies
 
Thalion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 08:11 pm
"Some philosophy leadeth one to atheism, but much philosophy leadeth one back to religion." --Francis Bacon

You are shallow if you cannot believe in the concept of God. Many people reject God on the grounds that suggesting such a material omniscient being is absurd. The physical or actual existence is not the important part. As a metaphor for my love of life, God must exist. If I hate, I stuffer. Therefore, if I want to completely enjoy my life, I must accept what comes and love. That idea is God.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 09:47 pm
Otis wrote:
this isnt really an opinion or anything that will add to the discussion, but I whenever someone says that "cartoon god" bit, it makes me think of this particular copy of the Old Testament I once saw. It's the actual Old Testament, but in comic book form. There are drawings and speech bubbles and the little boxes that say "Meanwhile..." every so often.


It's called the "Picture Bible" both the new and old testaments exist in this form.

I read it ad nauseum as a kid.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 09:51 pm
I believe in God....I even believe in Jesus...I believe it will all work out in the end....I just have no idea how, I have no idea what's real and what's made up stuff. I know that faith and God have been manipulated by men in order to maintain control over other men.

In other words I realize I don't know ****. I do believe though. Maybe I'm stupid, ignorant and weak. What's it to you? Laughing
0 Replies
 
Magus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Sep, 2004 10:18 pm
While the existence of a Great Creator is debatable... "Religion" is indubitably the creation of MAN.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 03:34 am
Thalion wrote:
"Some philosophy leadeth one to atheism, but much philosophy leadeth one back to religion." --Francis Bacon

You are shallow if you cannot believe in the concept of God.


You are even shallower if you insist that a god exists when there is no unambiguous evidence for it.

In any case, there is a lot of difference between "believing" in the concept of god and "believing" and insisting that a god exists.

Deal with that.


Quote:
Many people reject God on the grounds that suggesting such a material omniscient being is absurd. The physical or actual existence is not the important part. As a metaphor for my love of life, God must exist. If I hate, I stuffer. Therefore, if I want to completely enjoy my life, I must accept what comes and love. That idea is God.


You can call a camel a rose if you choose...but it ain't gonna smell any better.

Love is love.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 04:04 am
Love is love, and awe is awe. Where does it come from? Physicists can study sub atomic particles that originate from deep space, and astronomers can study atomic spectra from space on earth, but why is it all explanable in terms of mathematics? That the question I find awe inspiring.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 08:24 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Leviticus 25:44ff

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."

Well, I must concede that this is an interesting journey upon which I cannot take you.
There is a fixed world view upon which you base your reality (based on the extensive references you quoted) that I will never change. All I can do, for the sake of any whom might be interested in the world view of Orthodox Jews, is to feebly attempt to tell you how we see it - and at that, "I am but an egg" (Michael Valentine Smith from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land).

The first five books of the Bible are called the Torah. This is what Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses our Teacher) received from G-d on Har Sinai (Mt. Sinai).
This is called the Written Torah. Moshe also received the Oral Torah from Hashem (This literally means The Name and it is the appellation that Orthodox Jews use when referring to G-d in Hebrew). The Oral Torah is the explanation; the exegesis of the Written Torah. It is very complex, very detailed and practically endless….
This Torah She'bal peh (the Oral Torah) was passed on verbally from generation to generation. First Moshe Rabbeinu, upon the advice of his father-in-law, Yisro, appointed seventy elders to learn this Torah. They in turned passed it on…
At the time of the Roman destruction of the Second Temple (approx. 66 CE), this Oral transmission had become less pristine and was in danger of being lost.
The Rabbis spent the next several hundred years writing down this Oral Torah, first in the form of the Mishna, outlining the basic concepts; then in the form of the Gemorah, which went into more detail. Additional commentaries were then written as the complexities of the Torah needed further understanding. This resulted in what is called the Talmud, upon which RAbbi SHlomo Itzchaki, known as Rashi who wrote around 1040 CE, wrote extensive commentaries. These commentaries, along with commentaries written by his children and grandchildren known as Tosefos comprise the Talmud that we study today (along with many other commentaries and sources, but, believe it or not, I am trying to keep it simple).
This, along with the rest of what is called the "old testament" (Torah, Writings and Prophets, known as Tanach), and all of its commentaries - is all considered Torah.
That is to say, this is all considered to have come from Hashem on Har Sinai. The continuing study and commentary on the Torah is the result of our continuing efforts to understand what G-d demands of us, as Jews.

With this in mind, I address the first verse you cited:
This is from the weekly reading cycle called Parshas Behar, from the book of Vayikra, (Leviticus) 24:44 - 47
Quote:
Your slaves and maidservants that you shall possess from the nations that surround you, from them you may purchase slaves and maidservants. Also, from the children of the sojourners who reside with you from them you may purchase [slaves], and from their families that live among you that were born in your land. [All these] shall be your permanent possession. You shall will them as inheritance to your children after you as hereditary property; you shall keep them in servitude permanently. However regarding your bretheren, Bnei Yisroel, man over his brother, you must not rule over him to crush him.

There is a great deal of commentary on these verses, however, the main thrust of your contention concerns buying and owning non-Jewish slaves and their children, and its apparent injustice and cruelty.

In order to address that point, one must actually go back to Parshas Bo; Shemos (Exodus) 12:43,44 -
Quote:
Hashem said to Moshe and Aaron, "This is the decree of the pesach-offering: no alienated person may eat from it. And every man's servant that is bought for money, you shall circumcise him and then he may eat of it.

"The basic understanding of Torah Law is that no Jew could make any other human being into a slave. He could only acquire, by purchase, people who, by then universally accepted Jewish Law, were already slaves. But this transference into the property of a Jew was the one and only salvation for anybody who, according to the prevailing laws of the nations, was stamped as a slave. These non-Jews were completely unprotected and liable to the most inhumane treatment in other nations and, even when emancipated, wherever he was, he was looked upon as still belonging to the slave class, or as a freed-slave (Negroes, then blacks in America is an example). Therefore, the home of the Jew was, to them, a home of freedom. There, he was protected by law against mishandling, the law courts were accessible to him, and - this cannot be sufficiently valued, - he had the option if he wished (Talmud, Tractate Yebamos, 48b) of joining the Jewish bond with G-d in conjunction with the rest of the household. He would then become like the children, a member of the home, and take part, ike the children, in the eating of the Pesach offering which constituted Israel into the People of G-d."
-Rav Refuel Shimshon Hirsch - (one of the Gadolim, ((Great Men)) of the 19th century.)

Therefore, in further commentary on Behar 44-47, it must be understood that the continuance of slavery in the Jewish State is taken as a positive command (Talmud, Tractate Gittin 38b). Nevertheless, for the purpose of obeying G-d's commandments and for the reasons of general morality, giving them there freedom was allowed. The Law learns that your right over them extends purely and solely to work, but that you have no right to mishandle them, to hurt their feelings, or to put them to shame (Talmud, Tractate Nidda, 47a).
Jewish writings are full of features demonstrating the characteristic kindness, mildness, and humanness required by Jewish Law which marked the treatment of the avodim (servants / slaves).
Under Jewish Law, if you violated any of these attributes - such as treating your servant harshly or hurting his feelings, he would go free - totally.

In other words, the Laws of Slavery in Judaism are all dealing with Laws on how you must treat your bond servant, lest you become cruel and inhuman like the other nations.
This is the Torah. This is the Law.
Your translation and interpretation of this passage is viewed through the eyes of a 21st man, for whom slavery is an abhorrent evil.
The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.
That's the way it is..... Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 08:52 am
Quote:
The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.


Very admirable.........but the long and short of it, no matter how well the person is treated, he is still a slave, and under the yoke of the owner.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 08:59 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.


Very admirable.........but the long and short of it, no matter how well the person is treated, he is still a slave, and under the yoke of the owner.


I would guess that the Philipino maids, who have a monopoly on the trade in my neighbourhood would disagree. Philosophically, I agree, but not empirically.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:02 am
Despite the fact that I run my own business, I AM in a service industry, and am often treated like staff or slave. So what? That is the nature of things, and it doesn't affect me, as long as the cheque clears.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:12 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.


Very admirable.........but the long and short of it, no matter how well the person is treated, he is still a slave, and under the yoke of the owner.


As I posited before - you are stuck on your definition of slavery, which is not the Torah's definition.
Cav's comments are pertinent to this point....
0 Replies
 
dauer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:16 am
Everett Fox translated the word as serf. That seems to work better, even if it still isn't quite right.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:20 am
Moishe3rd wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Leviticus 25:44ff

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."

Well, I must concede that this is an interesting journey upon which I cannot take you.
There is a fixed world view upon which you base your reality (based on the extensive references you quoted) that I will never change. All I can do, for the sake of any whom might be interested in the world view of Orthodox Jews, is to feebly attempt to tell you how we see it - and at that, "I am but an egg" (Michael Valentine Smith from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land).

The first five books of the Bible are called the Torah. This is what Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses our Teacher) received from G-d on Har Sinai (Mt. Sinai).
This is called the Written Torah. Moshe also received the Oral Torah from Hashem (This literally means The Name and it is the appellation that Orthodox Jews use when referring to G-d in Hebrew). The Oral Torah is the explanation; the exegesis of the Written Torah. It is very complex, very detailed and practically endless….
This Torah She'bal peh (the Oral Torah) was passed on verbally from generation to generation. First Moshe Rabbeinu, upon the advice of his father-in-law, Yisro, appointed seventy elders to learn this Torah. They in turned passed it on…
At the time of the Roman destruction of the Second Temple (approx. 66 CE), this Oral transmission had become less pristine and was in danger of being lost.
The Rabbis spent the next several hundred years writing down this Oral Torah, first in the form of the Mishna, outlining the basic concepts; then in the form of the Gemorah, which went into more detail. Additional commentaries were then written as the complexities of the Torah needed further understanding. This resulted in what is called the Talmud, upon which RAbbi SHlomo Itzchaki, known as Rashi who wrote around 1040 CE, wrote extensive commentaries. These commentaries, along with commentaries written by his children and grandchildren known as Tosefos comprise the Talmud that we study today (along with many other commentaries and sources, but, believe it or not, I am trying to keep it simple).
This, along with the rest of what is called the "old testament" (Torah, Writings and Prophets, known as Tanach), and all of its commentaries - is all considered Torah.
That is to say, this is all considered to have come from Hashem on Har Sinai. The continuing study and commentary on the Torah is the result of our continuing efforts to understand what G-d demands of us, as Jews.

With this in mind, I address the first verse you cited:
This is from the weekly reading cycle called Parshas Behar, from the book of Vayikra, (Leviticus) 24:44 - 47
Quote:
Your slaves and maidservants that you shall possess from the nations that surround you, from them you may purchase slaves and maidservants. Also, from the children of the sojourners who reside with you from them you may purchase [slaves], and from their families that live among you that were born in your land. [All these] shall be your permanent possession. You shall will them as inheritance to your children after you as hereditary property; you shall keep them in servitude permanently. However regarding your bretheren, Bnei Yisroel, man over his brother, you must not rule over him to crush him.

There is a great deal of commentary on these verses, however, the main thrust of your contention concerns buying and owning non-Jewish slaves and their children, and its apparent injustice and cruelty.

In order to address that point, one must actually go back to Parshas Bo; Shemos (Exodus) 12:43,44 -
Quote:
Hashem said to Moshe and Aaron, "This is the decree of the pesach-offering: no alienated person may eat from it. And every man's servant that is bought for money, you shall circumcise him and then he may eat of it.

"The basic understanding of Torah Law is that no Jew could make any other human being into a slave. He could only acquire, by purchase, people who, by then universally accepted Jewish Law, were already slaves. But this transference into the property of a Jew was the one and only salvation for anybody who, according to the prevailing laws of the nations, was stamped as a slave. These non-Jews were completely unprotected and liable to the most inhumane treatment in other nations and, even when emancipated, wherever he was, he was looked upon as still belonging to the slave class, or as a freed-slave (Negroes, then blacks in America is an example). Therefore, the home of the Jew was, to them, a home of freedom. There, he was protected by law against mishandling, the law courts were accessible to him, and - this cannot be sufficiently valued, - he had the option if he wished (Talmud, Tractate Yebamos, 48b) of joining the Jewish bond with G-d in conjunction with the rest of the household. He would then become like the children, a member of the home, and take part, ike the children, in the eating of the Pesach offering which constituted Israel into the People of G-d."
-Rav Refuel Shimshon Hirsch - (one of the Gadolim, ((Great Men)) of the 19th century.)

Therefore, in further commentary on Behar 44-47, it must be understood that the continuance of slavery in the Jewish State is taken as a positive command (Talmud, Tractate Gittin 38b). Nevertheless, for the purpose of obeying G-d's commandments and for the reasons of general morality, giving them there freedom was allowed. The Law learns that your right over them extends purely and solely to work, but that you have no right to mishandle them, to hurt their feelings, or to put them to shame (Talmud, Tractate Nidda, 47a).
Jewish writings are full of features demonstrating the characteristic kindness, mildness, and humanness required by Jewish Law which marked the treatment of the avodim (servants / slaves).
Under Jewish Law, if you violated any of these attributes - such as treating your servant harshly or hurting his feelings, he would go free - totally.

In other words, the Laws of Slavery in Judaism are all dealing with Laws on how you must treat your bond servant, lest you become cruel and inhuman like the other nations.
This is the Torah. This is the Law.
Your translation and interpretation of this passage is viewed through the eyes of a 21st man, for whom slavery is an abhorrent evil.
The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.
That's the way it is..... Very Happy


Excellent, Moishe.

But the bottom line is that the god of the Bible did tell Moses that Jews could own slaves...and TOLD HIM THAT BEFORE ANY JEWS OWNED SLAVES.

The god of the Bible could have taught the Jews that slavery was a reprehensible state of affairs...and that ought not ever to own a slave. The god could have taught the Jews that if they felt compassion for their fellow human beings who were enslaved...they should buy them and set free.

After all...they supposedly had just come out of slavery themselves.

It has to be obvious to anyone who reads the accounts in Leviticus of the supposed conversations between Moses and the god...that they were not happening during the voyage through the desert. When that obvious fiction was written...Jews were already in place and already were trading in slaves....and this passage was merely put in to give the god's justification for the abhorant practice.

And all this teaching that you quoted, while very interesting, is merely trying to rationalize the unrationalizable.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:22 am
By the way, Moishe, when asked for my favorite science fiction story, I almost always answer "Stranger in a Strange Land."

Do you grok why I mention that?
0 Replies
 
john-nyc
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:25 am
Moishe3rd wrote:

Well, I must concede that this is an interesting journey upon which I cannot take you.
There is a fixed world view upon which you base your reality (based on the extensive references you quoted) that I will never change. All I can do, for the sake of any whom might be interested in the world view of Orthodox Jews, is to feebly attempt to tell you how we see it - and at that, "I am but an egg" (Michael Valentine Smith from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land).

The first five books of the Bible are called the Torah. This is what Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses our Teacher) received from G-d on Har Sinai (Mt. Sinai).
This is called the Written Torah. Moshe also received the Oral Torah from Hashem (This literally means The Name and it is the appellation that Orthodox Jews use when referring to G-d in Hebrew). The Oral Torah is the explanation; the exegesis of the Written Torah. It is very complex, very detailed and practically endless….
This Torah She'bal peh (the Oral Torah) was passed on verbally from generation to generation. First Moshe Rabbeinu, upon the advice of his father-in-law, Yisro, appointed seventy elders to learn this Torah. They in turned passed it on…
At the time of the Roman destruction of the Second Temple (approx. 66 CE), this Oral transmission had become less pristine and was in danger of being lost.
The Rabbis spent the next several hundred years writing down this Oral Torah, first in the form of the Mishna, outlining the basic concepts; then in the form of the Gemorah, which went into more detail. Additional commentaries were then written as the complexities of the Torah needed further understanding. This resulted in what is called the Talmud, upon which RAbbi SHlomo Itzchaki, known as Rashi who wrote around 1040 CE, wrote extensive commentaries. These commentaries, along with commentaries written by his children and grandchildren known as Tosefos comprise the Talmud that we study today (along with many other commentaries and sources, but, believe it or not, I am trying to keep it simple).
This, along with the rest of what is called the "old testament" (Torah, Writings and Prophets, known as Tanach), and all of its commentaries - is all considered Torah.
That is to say, this is all considered to have come from Hashem on Har Sinai. The continuing study and commentary on the Torah is the result of our continuing efforts to understand what G-d demands of us, as Jews.

With this in mind, I address the first verse you cited:
This is from the weekly reading cycle called Parshas Behar, from the book of Vayikra, (Leviticus) 24:44 - 47
Quote:
Your slaves and maidservants that you shall possess from the nations that surround you, from them you may purchase slaves and maidservants. Also, from the children of the sojourners who reside with you from them you may purchase [slaves], and from their families that live among you that were born in your land. [All these] shall be your permanent possession. You shall will them as inheritance to your children after you as hereditary property; you shall keep them in servitude permanently. However regarding your bretheren, Bnei Yisroel, man over his brother, you must not rule over him to crush him.

There is a great deal of commentary on these verses, however, the main thrust of your contention concerns buying and owning non-Jewish slaves and their children, and its apparent injustice and cruelty.

In order to address that point, one must actually go back to Parshas Bo; Shemos (Exodus) 12:43,44 -
Quote:
Hashem said to Moshe and Aaron, "This is the decree of the pesach-offering: no alienated person may eat from it. And every man's servant that is bought for money, you shall circumcise him and then he may eat of it.

"The basic understanding of Torah Law is that no Jew could make any other human being into a slave. He could only acquire, by purchase, people who, by then universally accepted Jewish Law, were already slaves. But this transference into the property of a Jew was the one and only salvation for anybody who, according to the prevailing laws of the nations, was stamped as a slave. These non-Jews were completely unprotected and liable to the most inhumane treatment in other nations and, even when emancipated, wherever he was, he was looked upon as still belonging to the slave class, or as a freed-slave (Negroes, then blacks in America is an example). Therefore, the home of the Jew was, to them, a home of freedom. There, he was protected by law against mishandling, the law courts were accessible to him, and - this cannot be sufficiently valued, - he had the option if he wished (Talmud, Tractate Yebamos, 48b) of joining the Jewish bond with G-d in conjunction with the rest of the household. He would then become like the children, a member of the home, and take part, ike the children, in the eating of the Pesach offering which constituted Israel into the People of G-d."
-Rav Refuel Shimshon Hirsch - (one of the Gadolim, ((Great Men)) of the 19th century.)

Therefore, in further commentary on Behar 44-47, it must be understood that the continuance of slavery in the Jewish State is taken as a positive command (Talmud, Tractate Gittin 38b). Nevertheless, for the purpose of obeying G-d's commandments and for the reasons of general morality, giving them there freedom was allowed. The Law learns that your right over them extends purely and solely to work, but that you have no right to mishandle them, to hurt their feelings, or to put them to shame (Talmud, Tractate Nidda, 47a).
Jewish writings are full of features demonstrating the characteristic kindness, mildness, and humanness required by Jewish Law which marked the treatment of the avodim (servants / slaves).
Under Jewish Law, if you violated any of these attributes - such as treating your servant harshly or hurting his feelings, he would go free - totally.

In other words, the Laws of Slavery in Judaism are all dealing with Laws on how you must treat your bond servant, lest you become cruel and inhuman like the other nations.
This is the Torah. This is the Law.
Your translation and interpretation of this passage is viewed through the eyes of a 21st man, for whom slavery is an abhorrent evil.
The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.
That's the way it is..... Very Happy


Can all this be interperted to mean that todays observant jewish business owner views his employees as "part time" slaves (or serfs)?
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 09:29 am
To answer john/nyc, no.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Sep, 2004 11:49 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
By the way, Moishe, when asked for my favorite science fiction story, I almost always answer "Stranger in a Strange Land."

Do you grok why I mention that?


Really cool sex? Laughing
Jesus being crucified for preaching without a police permit?
Grass floors?
Speaking ex cathedra from the belly button?
The rules for a sovereign head of state?
Or possibly, simply, because there is work to be done and no matter how hard one may try to avoid the repulsive idea, Jubal, we sure could use G-d's help doing it?

And as regards:
Quote:
The god of the Bible could have taught the Jews that slavery was a reprehensible state of affairs...and that ought not ever to own a slave. The god could have taught the Jews that if they felt compassion for their fellow human beings who were enslaved...they should buy them and set free.

We are operating on different levels of understanding here.
The Torah is a blueprint for how G-d demands the Jews behave - morally; ethically; spiritually - not on how to deal with today's current beliefs.
The Jews were slaves. Slavery existed in all nations.
Read it again carefully. G-d told the Jews that buying non-Jewish slaves would raise their moral fiber - and that was true.
Your concept of slavery in your above argument is NOT the Jewish concept of avodah - not at all. The Torah delivered the Jews a new moral concept which is and was contrary to the way you perceive it...
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