yes I do.
In response you wrote:
Quote:"My God" (your words, not mine) would simply create the world. Period.
Ok, we agree that the universe is created.
Does your god use pre-existing material or ex nihilo? Is your god outside of time and space, transcendent?
Quote:As far as "morals" are concerned, the God would not be offended by any of the things humans do. The God would simply keep a hands off position with regard to humans -- and allow humans to determine for themselves what they would tolerate and what they would not.
Since your god would not be "offended" by anything humans would do your god is a moral god. This then raises the question, could a moral god really take a "hands off" position regarding his creation?
Also you take offense at the G-d of Scripture and His "morals" now, what makes you think man left to his own would be any better morally?
Quote:Where did I ever tell you that you must reject God or gods?
When you stated this:
Quote:I have carefully read what the god of the Bible says and does...and I reject that any God (Capital "G" God) would say and do.
You wrote:
Quote:No...but can you show me any reason why the god of the Bible decided to give these injunctions if he did not intend for people to use them?
G-d, I am fairly sure, had every intention of people using them but perhaps the "fear" of it being carried out is why it may have never been used.
You wrote:
Quote:Whether I or you know of an incident where it was done is not nearly as important as the fact that if it were done...your god would not be offended by it.
I offer this as a rebuttal
Jonah 4:2-11
2 He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.
3 "Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life."
4 The LORD said, "Do you have good reason to be angry?"
5 Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city.
6 So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant.
7 But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it withered.
8 When the sun came up God appointed a scorching east wind, and the sun beat down on Jonah's head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, "Death is better to me than life."
9 Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?" And he said, "I have good reason to be angry, even to death."
10 Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.
11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"
NASU
this isnt really an opinion or anything that will add to the discussion, but I whenever someone says that "cartoon god" bit, it makes me think of this particular copy of the Old Testament I once saw. It's the actual Old Testament, but in comic book form. There are drawings and speech bubbles and the little boxes that say "Meanwhile..." every so often.
"Some philosophy leadeth one to atheism, but much philosophy leadeth one back to religion." --Francis Bacon
You are shallow if you cannot believe in the concept of God.
Many people reject God on the grounds that suggesting such a material omniscient being is absurd. The physical or actual existence is not the important part. As a metaphor for my love of life, God must exist. If I hate, I stuffer. Therefore, if I want to completely enjoy my life, I must accept what comes and love. That idea is God.
Leviticus 25:44ff
"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."
Your slaves and maidservants that you shall possess from the nations that surround you, from them you may purchase slaves and maidservants. Also, from the children of the sojourners who reside with you from them you may purchase [slaves], and from their families that live among you that were born in your land. [All these] shall be your permanent possession. You shall will them as inheritance to your children after you as hereditary property; you shall keep them in servitude permanently. However regarding your bretheren, Bnei Yisroel, man over his brother, you must not rule over him to crush him.
Hashem said to Moshe and Aaron, "This is the decree of the pesach-offering: no alienated person may eat from it. And every man's servant that is bought for money, you shall circumcise him and then he may eat of it.
The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.
Quote:The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.
Very admirable.........but the long and short of it, no matter how well the person is treated, he is still a slave, and under the yoke of the owner.
Quote:The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.
Very admirable.........but the long and short of it, no matter how well the person is treated, he is still a slave, and under the yoke of the owner.
Frank Apisa wrote:Quote:Leviticus 25:44ff
"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."
Well, I must concede that this is an interesting journey upon which I cannot take you.
There is a fixed world view upon which you base your reality (based on the extensive references you quoted) that I will never change. All I can do, for the sake of any whom might be interested in the world view of Orthodox Jews, is to feebly attempt to tell you how we see it - and at that, "I am but an egg" (Michael Valentine Smith from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land).
The first five books of the Bible are called the Torah. This is what Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses our Teacher) received from G-d on Har Sinai (Mt. Sinai).
This is called the Written Torah. Moshe also received the Oral Torah from Hashem (This literally means The Name and it is the appellation that Orthodox Jews use when referring to G-d in Hebrew). The Oral Torah is the explanation; the exegesis of the Written Torah. It is very complex, very detailed and practically endless .
This Torah She'bal peh (the Oral Torah) was passed on verbally from generation to generation. First Moshe Rabbeinu, upon the advice of his father-in-law, Yisro, appointed seventy elders to learn this Torah. They in turned passed it on
At the time of the Roman destruction of the Second Temple (approx. 66 CE), this Oral transmission had become less pristine and was in danger of being lost.
The Rabbis spent the next several hundred years writing down this Oral Torah, first in the form of the Mishna, outlining the basic concepts; then in the form of the Gemorah, which went into more detail. Additional commentaries were then written as the complexities of the Torah needed further understanding. This resulted in what is called the Talmud, upon which RAbbi SHlomo Itzchaki, known as Rashi who wrote around 1040 CE, wrote extensive commentaries. These commentaries, along with commentaries written by his children and grandchildren known as Tosefos comprise the Talmud that we study today (along with many other commentaries and sources, but, believe it or not, I am trying to keep it simple).
This, along with the rest of what is called the "old testament" (Torah, Writings and Prophets, known as Tanach), and all of its commentaries - is all considered Torah.
That is to say, this is all considered to have come from Hashem on Har Sinai. The continuing study and commentary on the Torah is the result of our continuing efforts to understand what G-d demands of us, as Jews.
With this in mind, I address the first verse you cited:
This is from the weekly reading cycle called Parshas Behar, from the book of Vayikra, (Leviticus) 24:44 - 47
Quote:Your slaves and maidservants that you shall possess from the nations that surround you, from them you may purchase slaves and maidservants. Also, from the children of the sojourners who reside with you from them you may purchase [slaves], and from their families that live among you that were born in your land. [All these] shall be your permanent possession. You shall will them as inheritance to your children after you as hereditary property; you shall keep them in servitude permanently. However regarding your bretheren, Bnei Yisroel, man over his brother, you must not rule over him to crush him.
There is a great deal of commentary on these verses, however, the main thrust of your contention concerns buying and owning non-Jewish slaves and their children, and its apparent injustice and cruelty.
In order to address that point, one must actually go back to Parshas Bo; Shemos (Exodus) 12:43,44 -
Quote:Hashem said to Moshe and Aaron, "This is the decree of the pesach-offering: no alienated person may eat from it. And every man's servant that is bought for money, you shall circumcise him and then he may eat of it.
"The basic understanding of Torah Law is that no Jew could make any other human being into a slave. He could only acquire, by purchase, people who, by then universally accepted Jewish Law, were already slaves. But this transference into the property of a Jew was the one and only salvation for anybody who, according to the prevailing laws of the nations, was stamped as a slave. These non-Jews were completely unprotected and liable to the most inhumane treatment in other nations and, even when emancipated, wherever he was, he was looked upon as still belonging to the slave class, or as a freed-slave (Negroes, then blacks in America is an example). Therefore, the home of the Jew was, to them, a home of freedom. There, he was protected by law against mishandling, the law courts were accessible to him, and - this cannot be sufficiently valued, - he had the option if he wished (Talmud, Tractate Yebamos, 48b) of joining the Jewish bond with G-d in conjunction with the rest of the household. He would then become like the children, a member of the home, and take part, ike the children, in the eating of the Pesach offering which constituted Israel into the People of G-d."
-Rav Refuel Shimshon Hirsch - (one of the Gadolim, ((Great Men)) of the 19th century.)
Therefore, in further commentary on Behar 44-47, it must be understood that the continuance of slavery in the Jewish State is taken as a positive command (Talmud, Tractate Gittin 38b). Nevertheless, for the purpose of obeying G-d's commandments and for the reasons of general morality, giving them there freedom was allowed. The Law learns that your right over them extends purely and solely to work, but that you have no right to mishandle them, to hurt their feelings, or to put them to shame (Talmud, Tractate Nidda, 47a).
Jewish writings are full of features demonstrating the characteristic kindness, mildness, and humanness required by Jewish Law which marked the treatment of the avodim (servants / slaves).
Under Jewish Law, if you violated any of these attributes - such as treating your servant harshly or hurting his feelings, he would go free - totally.
In other words, the Laws of Slavery in Judaism are all dealing with Laws on how you must treat your bond servant, lest you become cruel and inhuman like the other nations.
This is the Torah. This is the Law.
Your translation and interpretation of this passage is viewed through the eyes of a 21st man, for whom slavery is an abhorrent evil.
The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.
That's the way it is.....
Well, I must concede that this is an interesting journey upon which I cannot take you.
There is a fixed world view upon which you base your reality (based on the extensive references you quoted) that I will never change. All I can do, for the sake of any whom might be interested in the world view of Orthodox Jews, is to feebly attempt to tell you how we see it - and at that, "I am but an egg" (Michael Valentine Smith from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land).
The first five books of the Bible are called the Torah. This is what Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses our Teacher) received from G-d on Har Sinai (Mt. Sinai).
This is called the Written Torah. Moshe also received the Oral Torah from Hashem (This literally means The Name and it is the appellation that Orthodox Jews use when referring to G-d in Hebrew). The Oral Torah is the explanation; the exegesis of the Written Torah. It is very complex, very detailed and practically endless .
This Torah She'bal peh (the Oral Torah) was passed on verbally from generation to generation. First Moshe Rabbeinu, upon the advice of his father-in-law, Yisro, appointed seventy elders to learn this Torah. They in turned passed it on
At the time of the Roman destruction of the Second Temple (approx. 66 CE), this Oral transmission had become less pristine and was in danger of being lost.
The Rabbis spent the next several hundred years writing down this Oral Torah, first in the form of the Mishna, outlining the basic concepts; then in the form of the Gemorah, which went into more detail. Additional commentaries were then written as the complexities of the Torah needed further understanding. This resulted in what is called the Talmud, upon which RAbbi SHlomo Itzchaki, known as Rashi who wrote around 1040 CE, wrote extensive commentaries. These commentaries, along with commentaries written by his children and grandchildren known as Tosefos comprise the Talmud that we study today (along with many other commentaries and sources, but, believe it or not, I am trying to keep it simple).
This, along with the rest of what is called the "old testament" (Torah, Writings and Prophets, known as Tanach), and all of its commentaries - is all considered Torah.
That is to say, this is all considered to have come from Hashem on Har Sinai. The continuing study and commentary on the Torah is the result of our continuing efforts to understand what G-d demands of us, as Jews.
With this in mind, I address the first verse you cited:
This is from the weekly reading cycle called Parshas Behar, from the book of Vayikra, (Leviticus) 24:44 - 47
Quote:Your slaves and maidservants that you shall possess from the nations that surround you, from them you may purchase slaves and maidservants. Also, from the children of the sojourners who reside with you from them you may purchase [slaves], and from their families that live among you that were born in your land. [All these] shall be your permanent possession. You shall will them as inheritance to your children after you as hereditary property; you shall keep them in servitude permanently. However regarding your bretheren, Bnei Yisroel, man over his brother, you must not rule over him to crush him.
There is a great deal of commentary on these verses, however, the main thrust of your contention concerns buying and owning non-Jewish slaves and their children, and its apparent injustice and cruelty.
In order to address that point, one must actually go back to Parshas Bo; Shemos (Exodus) 12:43,44 -
Quote:Hashem said to Moshe and Aaron, "This is the decree of the pesach-offering: no alienated person may eat from it. And every man's servant that is bought for money, you shall circumcise him and then he may eat of it.
"The basic understanding of Torah Law is that no Jew could make any other human being into a slave. He could only acquire, by purchase, people who, by then universally accepted Jewish Law, were already slaves. But this transference into the property of a Jew was the one and only salvation for anybody who, according to the prevailing laws of the nations, was stamped as a slave. These non-Jews were completely unprotected and liable to the most inhumane treatment in other nations and, even when emancipated, wherever he was, he was looked upon as still belonging to the slave class, or as a freed-slave (Negroes, then blacks in America is an example). Therefore, the home of the Jew was, to them, a home of freedom. There, he was protected by law against mishandling, the law courts were accessible to him, and - this cannot be sufficiently valued, - he had the option if he wished (Talmud, Tractate Yebamos, 48b) of joining the Jewish bond with G-d in conjunction with the rest of the household. He would then become like the children, a member of the home, and take part, ike the children, in the eating of the Pesach offering which constituted Israel into the People of G-d."
-Rav Refuel Shimshon Hirsch - (one of the Gadolim, ((Great Men)) of the 19th century.)
Therefore, in further commentary on Behar 44-47, it must be understood that the continuance of slavery in the Jewish State is taken as a positive command (Talmud, Tractate Gittin 38b). Nevertheless, for the purpose of obeying G-d's commandments and for the reasons of general morality, giving them there freedom was allowed. The Law learns that your right over them extends purely and solely to work, but that you have no right to mishandle them, to hurt their feelings, or to put them to shame (Talmud, Tractate Nidda, 47a).
Jewish writings are full of features demonstrating the characteristic kindness, mildness, and humanness required by Jewish Law which marked the treatment of the avodim (servants / slaves).
Under Jewish Law, if you violated any of these attributes - such as treating your servant harshly or hurting his feelings, he would go free - totally.
In other words, the Laws of Slavery in Judaism are all dealing with Laws on how you must treat your bond servant, lest you become cruel and inhuman like the other nations.
This is the Torah. This is the Law.
Your translation and interpretation of this passage is viewed through the eyes of a 21st man, for whom slavery is an abhorrent evil.
The Torah agrees, and states that when a Jew must deal with the buying of human beings, he must do so according to G-d's Law. And that required treating the bond servant more humanely than one would treat one's own family.
That's the way it is.....
By the way, Moishe, when asked for my favorite science fiction story, I almost always answer "Stranger in a Strange Land."
Do you grok why I mention that?
The god of the Bible could have taught the Jews that slavery was a reprehensible state of affairs...and that ought not ever to own a slave. The god could have taught the Jews that if they felt compassion for their fellow human beings who were enslaved...they should buy them and set free.