Religion Is For The Weak And Ignorant Masses

What part of the 10 commandments is immoral...I'd have to say 'Do not covet thy neighbour's wife'. When I was in the bloom of adolescence, there lived next to me a total MILF. I coveted her, but did not act. It was the normal function of a growing boy, and I should not be punished for that. It is a sin to kill children under the age of 18.

My opinion of the god of the Bible is that the god is a murderous, barbaric god. I suspect that is because the men who (apparently) invented the god needed a murderous, barbaric god to protect themselves from the murderous, barbaric gods of their enemies.

If this is indeed so, how would you explain the anomalies? Just a sport? A randomly occuring "thing" that proves the idea of randomness? I would suggest that you investigate the scientific probabilities of Life "accidentally" occurring in our Universe. It is statistically impossible. I would suggest an investigation of the origins of our Universe itself. This is another anomaly.

Let us ask, what is the evidence? You would probably accept evidence that the sun will "rise" tomorrow by virtue of the fact that it has always done so as long as man has recorded such things.
Likewise, you may accept other more intangible ideas regarding our universe such as black holes or global warming or that mother's "love" their children or that Bill Clinton is indeed capable of charming the pants off of many females. All of these require a certain amount of "faith" based on your definition. But let us grant you the world of the senses - If you can see it, hear it, touch it, smell it, feel it, then it exists within a minimum amount of stretching your "faith."

What moral values are not based on religious values? The ethical code of the "greatest good for the greatest number" is a very new ethic which is practiced in very few places. It is only practiced based on religion and only practiced at that based on the total saturation of religion in whatever society attempts to practice this ethic.
The American society is totally based on Jewish and Christian religious ethics. Which is indeed why it works so well....

Okay, with the above and the cartoon thing, could you give me some concrete examples of what it is that you object to; find fault with; find barbarous or murderous; find cartoonish; etcetera. in the first five books of the Bible or simply the ones that you mention - Deut. and Leviticus
I only ask because I find NONE of it murderous or cartoonish and therefore I have too much data to argue about.
Give me an example and, for the sake of my own learning, I will attempt to explain using what I considered reliable references.

Voltoza wroteL "Societies can make their own code of ethics based on the greatest good for the greatest number."

Isn't that how Hitler and Stalin started out?

cavfancier wrote:

Voltoza wroteL "Societies can make their own code of ethics based on the greatest good for the greatest number."

Isn't that how Hitler and Stalin started out?

Ethics can be very complicated. The point I was trying to make is that religion is not needed in order to have a sound code of ethics. Using a utilitarian approach can be useful, but clearly not the ONLY method used by a society. Ethics is another topic altogether, which will be great for another time.

Voltoza wrote:

cavfancier wrote:

Voltoza wroteL "Societies can make their own code of ethics based on the greatest good for the greatest number."

Isn't that how Hitler and Stalin started out?

Ethics can be very complicated. The point I was trying to make is that religion is not needed in order to have a sound code of ethics. Using a utilitarian approach can be useful, but clearly not the ONLY method used by a society. Ethics is another topic altogether, which will be great for another time.

Cav is an excellent thinker, Vol...but I think this particular quote needs a few edges rounded.

Cav...there is no doubt that man-made ethics and morals can be abused...and monsters like Hitler and Stalin can use the approach to further their own ends...

...but the so-called God-ordained morality and ethics MAY very well be man-made also. Fact is, I strongly suspect some ancient Hebrews decided to put their personal ethics and morality into a morality play called Scripture. It may be, in fact, that all supposed Scripture is man-made...so we are run full circle.

In any case, just as a Hitler and Stalin can subvert man-made morality and ethics....humans have always found ways to subvert the supposed God-ordained morality and ethics just as grossly.

TonyO wrote:

Frank wrote:

Quote:

Any day of the week...and twice on Sundays.

I await your god. Please explain how this god would deal with:

1) Creation
2) Morals
3) Define as best as possible your gods nature (a spirit, tangible body, etc)

(There are of course many other "how would he's" but these are enough for now)

Hi Frank,

In response you wrote:

Quote:

"My God" (your words, not mine) would simply create the world. Period.

Ok, we agree that the universe is created. Does your god use pre-existing material or ex nihilo? Is your god outside of time and space, transcendent? Thanks

You wrote:

Quote:

As far as "morals" are concerned, the God would not be offended by any of the things humans do. The God would simply keep a hands off position with regard to humans -- and allow humans to determine for themselves what they would tolerate and what they would not.

Since your god would not be "offended" by anything humans would do your god is a moral god. This then raises the question, could a moral god really take a "hands off" position regarding his creation?

Also you take offense at the G-d of Scripture and His "morals" now, what makes you think man left to his own would be any better morally?

You wrote:

Quote:

The God would be spirit (I guess) but would not be jealous, vindictive, vengeful, petty, murderous, or barbaric. It would probably never get involved with what humans should or should not do...but if it did, it certainly would never tell humans that some humans could own other humans...or that humans should slaughter people in wars. It would leave those kinds of things to the petty, cartoon gods that humans who are afraid of the unknown invent.

OK, since you claim that your god would be spirit, would this spirit then be Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent?


You wrote:

Quote:

Where did I ever tell you that you must reject God or gods?

When you stated this:

Quote:

I have carefully read what the god of the Bible says and does...and I reject that any God (Capital "G" God) would say and do.

Fact is, you Christians reject it also...but you are in a bind. You want Jesus to be God also...so you pretty much are stuck with the god described in Leviticus and Deuteronomy....and that god is a cartoon.

You wrote:

Quote:

Would you mind being more specific.

Here is what the god of the Bible has to say about those things.


Leviticus 25:44ff
"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...such slaves
you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their
hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves."


"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13


"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff


"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you." Deuteronomy 20:10

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9

Please cite specific passages from Jesus that says those same things...or that gives that kind of flavor to what he is saying.

You just did. Jesus is G-d incarnate, hence Jesus is eternal. All things were created by and through Him. In other words since Jesus is G-d come in the flesh then as G-d Jesus gave the Law.

You wrote:

Quote:

No...but can you show me any reason why the god of the Bible decided to give these injunctions if he did not intend for people to use them?

G-d, I am fairly sure, had every intention of people using them but perhaps the "fear" of it being carried out is why it may have never been used.

My kids would love to get on the internet whenever they so choose but they don't for two reasons. 1) They love me and respect my rules and 2) they fear the consequences of going against my rules

You wrote:

Quote:

Whether I or you know of an incident where it was done is not nearly as important as the fact that if it were done...your god would not be offended by it.

I offer this as a rebuttal

Jonah 4:2-11
2 He prayed to the LORD and said, "Please LORD, was not this what I said while I was still in my own country? Therefore in order to forestall this I fled to Tarshish, for I knew that You are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, and one who relents concerning calamity.

3 "Therefore now, O LORD, please take my life from me, for death is better to me than life."

4 The LORD said, "Do you have good reason to be angry?"

5 Then Jonah went out from the city and sat east of it. There he made a shelter for himself and sat under it in the shade until he could see what would happen in the city.

6 So the LORD God appointed a plant and it grew up over Jonah to be a shade over his head to deliver him from his discomfort. And Jonah was extremely happy about the plant.

7 But God appointed a worm when dawn came the next day and it attacked the plant and it withered.

8 When the sun came up God appointed a scorching east wind, and the sun beat down on Jonah's head so that he became faint and begged with all his soul to die, saying, "Death is better to me than life."

9 Then God said to Jonah, "Do you have good reason to be angry about the plant?" And he said, "I have good reason to be angry, even to death."

10 Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight and perished overnight.

11 "Should I not have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals?"
NASU

Quote:

I am sure all those books you have explain that Leviticus is a book that makes a stark contrast between the holiness of God and the sin of man. Leviticus also explains the dealings and goings on of the Levites and their duties relating to the Temple services and their dealings within the people as "priests".

You wrote:

Quote:

But the best possible explanation of Leviticus is that it is a collection of fables...the sensibilities of relatively uninformed, relatively unsophisticated, very, very supersitious ancient Hebrews...who were trying to create a civilization...and who put their morals and sensibilities into the mouth of a god they invented in order to do so.

You mean like you are doing now?

Thank you also Frank for the discussion. Take care,

Tony

Once there was a time I thought it polite to accept that people of religion deserved tolerance and sympathy. I gave that up years ago. Inane reasoing remains inane reasoning regardless of it's intentions.

Once there was a time I thought it polite to accept that people of religion deserved tolerance and sympathy. I gave that up years ago. Inane reasoing remains inane reasoning regardless of it's intentions.