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Racist Police in America? Math Matters

 
 
giujohn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:04 pm
@maxdancona,
First let me apologize for the erroneous words that appeared my last post has my voice to text was picking up conversation on the TV and I am now unable to edit it.

As for your post regarding mr. Garner the mere fact that he was still struggling with the officer while he was saying I can't breathe would indicate to the officer that one he was definitely still not complying and 2 would probably make the officer believe that it was a ruse so that the officer would loosen his grip and allow mr. Gardiner to gain the advantage

According to your logic if an offender is trying to get my gun and I'm fighting him off and I get him into a Chokehold and he starts screaming I can't breathe I can't breathe I'm supposed to stop and let him get the advantage and maybe get my gun and kill me because I have a responsibility to make sure that he's still breathing? And you say I'm the one being ridiculous.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:06 pm
@MontereyJack,
Not true. They, the republicans, want to build more prisons which they will privatize in order to make more jobs on the public dollar.
giujohn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:08 pm
@RABEL222,
So incredibly funny that it doesn't even deserve a much more of a reply
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:09 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
The police are working for the people in the community they serve.


When did they start this.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:09 pm
I've argued with the cop on every ticket that I've received. I've done so after notifying him of a gun under the drivers seat of my car (legally allowed of course). I also haven't been pulled over one single time in the last 10 years.

How many black people can say that? The police escalation stuff is horrible and should be investigated and condemned when needed. But what really pisses me off are the discrepancies in sentencing for similar offenses depending on race. How black people get pulled over some ungodly percent more than white people.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:11 pm
@giujohn,
So this means you cant rebut the statement?
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:14 pm
@maporsche,
I think Max has it exactly right. If a cop thinks its his right to demand respect he isent doing the job of protecting the citizens and needs to find another job.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:20 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I've argued with the cop on every ticket that I've received. I've done so after notifying him of a gun under the drivers seat of my car (legally allowed of course). I also haven't been pulled over one single time in the last 10 years.

How many black people can say that? The police escalation stuff is horrible and should be investigated and condemned when needed. But what really pisses me off are the discrepancies in sentencing for similar offenses depending on race. How black people get pulled over some ungodly percent more than white people.


Because police go where the crime is and black people predominately live in the urban ghettos... And while that may sound unfair to you where do you want the police to Patrol in the neighborhoods without the crime?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:25 pm
@giujohn,
Cool story.

How does that explain black people getting pulled over more frequently in my wealthy suburban Chicago neighborhood with basically zero crime?
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 02:33 pm
@giujohn,
Quote:
According to your logic if an offender is trying to get my gun and I'm fighting him off and I get him into a Chokehold and he starts screaming I can't breathe I can't breathe I'm supposed to stop and let him get the advantage and maybe get my gun and kill me because I have a responsibility to make sure that he's still breathing? And you say I'm the one being ridiculous.


Yes, you are being ridiculous. There are five officers there confronting one unarmed man. This number of professionally trained officers should be able to make an arrest (or choose not to make the arrest) without any risk of death to either the citizen or the officers. They failed.

A good police officer would have safely deescalated this sort violent confrontation. You back off, you give the citizen a chance to calm down. Then when everyone has calmed down, you make an arrest... or choose not to make an arrest. Police officers should be trained to stay out of fights, and particularly not to let their emotions to put them and the citizens they are interacting with into danger.

If a police officer needs to make a forced arrest (which should only be done after every reasonable option has been exhausted) you do this professionally. Even when this happens when the odds are five on one... there is no need for a choke hold.

Well trained police officers acting professionally rarely get into these types of types of confrontations. And when they do they do things safely even when they are forced (after every other possible course of action is exhausted) into the use of physical force.

giujohn
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 03:55 pm
@maxdancona,
Spoken like somebody who has never had to physically Place someone under arrest who did not want to go.

My suggestion is at the very least you go through a civilian police academy.

In most Academy classes they have the same little drill whereby they present you with a 100-pound 5 foot female and with nothing but a pair of handcuffs and the instructions that you are you to place her under arrest put her in handcuffs, you cannot use anything more than minimal force... in other words you can't hurt her or knock her out. Good luck.

And in real life if she's drunk or on drugs then you're really screwed.

Your scenario where you give the citizen a chance to calm down and then make the arrest is laughable... The only thing that's going to do is impower the citizen to believe that he is winning and he is not going to want to go to jail. And pray tell how long do you give this individual to calm down and decide all of a sudden that he is going to go to jail... 1 minute 2 minutes 5 minutes 30 minutes? You're not living in the real world and it doesn't happen like it does on TV... it gets very messy very quickly. Police officers do not get paid to lose the confrontation.

As a professional police officer I always believed in giving a person a way out. I stood my ground and told them for instance they had two choices; they could leave or go to jail, discontinue the offending Behavior they were exhibiting or go to jail, or whatever the circumstance was at the time, but when I was committed to arrest the individual I always gave them an alternative. I told them first in no uncertain terms that they were under arrest and one way or another Were going to jail; the alternative was that they could comply or they could resist and run the risk of being hurt and have another charge added which the judge would look on unfavorably on when considering the original charge.

And in the ideal situation I would want as many police officers that were available at the time to assist me... Like I said it's not like it is on TV.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 04:35 pm
My 2c worth to all of this:

- The DoJ investigations do show over targetting of black americans by police. One particularly interesting finding I read was the number of motorists searched for drugs: Black motorists were search in greater numbers, but returned 22% less drugs finds than white motorists.

That is clear discrimination.
--------------------------------------------------------
Just plain Black V White stats will never tell the whole truth (there has to be corresponding stats like in the above example, to give context).

To illustrate (and making up numbers because I don't know the specific numbers, but this is just to paint a picture of how stats are problematic -in this example, for police intercepts:

A. Race / Population (Race A / Race B): 20% v 80% : the 80% should get pulled over 4 times more, right?
B. Socioeconomic/Crime (Poor/Rich): 80% v 20% : the 80% should get pulled over 4 times more, right?
C. Race /Crime (Race C/Race D) : 40% v 60%: The 60% should get pulled over 1.5 times more, right?

A= population % of a race
B= how much a socioecomic class contributes to the overall crime rate (regardless of race)
C= how much a particular race contributes to the overall crime rate

The type of measurement where Races A,B,C, and D are mentioned can be used as individual measures of 'what % should be pulled over'.

However, what happens if Race B = Race D: should they get pulled over 4 times more, or 1.5 times more. Which is the correct intercept amount that does not show discrimination?

What is the correct % for intercepts that doesn't show discrimination if you start combining a number of negative traits, or a number of positive traits?

In contrast, the first example I gave in this post, shows a clear discrimination.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Someone made the comment that Black Lives Matters needs to disavow violent behaviour by it's supporters (possibly in another thread). I couldn't agree more.

Peaceful protest has been shown to work. As has going through democratic processes (petitions, letters to politicians, voting blocks, peaceful demonstations, social media, letters to editor, blogs, joining / creating political parties etc)

In contrast, violent protests / violent messages tend to increase divides. They may get more media coverage, but the overall result is usually a greater 'us vs them' mentality. All that does is feed racism (both ways - you can't develop an 'Us v Them' mentality, based on race, without being racist).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Max (I think it was) made the point that just like a small number of terrorism related deaths doesn't diminish the problem of terrorism, also a small number of police executions doesn't diminish the problem. I couldn't agree more.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

John made the point that the statistics on deaths show such events are very rare, and don't show endemic 'kill blacks' attitude by police officers, as attempts to be portrayed...that's also a very fair point.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

There were plenty of other things that jumped out at me as I was reading through these threads, but the above is what I recall off the top of my head.
giujohn
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 05:54 pm
The most recent statistics on police contact in United States... please note what is been highlighted in bold letters


The most common reason for contact with the police is being a driver in a traffic stop. In 2011, an estimated 42% of face-to-face contacts that U.S. residents had with police occurred for this reason. About half of all traffic stops that year resulted in a traffic ticket. Approximately 3% of all stopped drivers were searched by police during a traffic stop.
THAT BEARS REPEATING
Approximately 3% of all stopped drivers were searched by police during a traffic stop.

Summary findings

An estimated 26.4 million persons age 16 or older indicated that their most recent contact with the police in 2011 was as a driver pulled over in a traffic stop. These drivers represented 12% of the nation's 212 million drivers.
A greater percentage of male drivers (12%) than female drivers (8%) were stopped by police during 2011. A higher percentage of black drivers (13%) than white (10%)... that's only a 3% difference boys and girls and Hispanic (10%) drivers were stopped by police during 2011.
Stopped drivers reported speeding as the most common reason for being pulled over in 2011.
Approximately 80% of drivers pulled over by police in 2011 felt they had been stopped for a legitimate reason. In 2011, about 68% of black drivers believed police had a legitimate reason for stopping them compared to 84% of whiteand 74% of Hispanic drivers.
In 2011, about 3% of traffic stops led to a search of the driver, the vehicle, or both.Police were more likely to search male drivers (4%) than female drivers (2%).
A lower percentage of white drivers stopped by police in 2011 were searched (2%) than black (6%) or Hispanic (7%) drivers.(I wonder what part attitude played in this figure)

In 2011, over 62.9 million U.S. residents age 16 or older,
or 26% of the population, had one or more contacts with
police during the prior 12 months. For about half (49%) of persons experiencing contact with police, the most recent contact was involuntary or police-initiated. In 2011, 86% of persons involved in traffic stops during their most recent contact with police and 66% of persons involved in street stops (i.e., stopped in public but not in a moving vehicle) believed that the police both behaved properly and
treated them with respect during the contact.
A greater
percentage of persons involved in street stops (25%) than
those pulled over in traffic stops (10%) believed the police
had not behaved properly. Regardless of the reason for the
stop, less than 5% of persons who believed the police had not
behaved properly filed a complaint. [/b]

HIGHLIGHTS
„Relatively more black drivers (13%) than white (10%) and
Hispanic (10%) drivers were pulled over in a traffic stop
during their most recent contact with police. There were
no statistical differences in the race or Hispanic origin of
persons involved in street stops.
„Persons involved in street stops were less likely (71%) than
drivers in traffic stops (88%) to believe that the police
behaved properly.
„Of those involved in traffic and street stops, a smaller
percentage of blacks than whites believed the police
behaved properly during the stop.
„Drivers pulled over by an officer of the same race or
ethnicity were more likely (83%) than drivers pulled over
by an officer of a different race or ethnicity (74%) to believe
that the reason for the traffic stop was legitimate.

„White drivers were both ticketed and searched at lower
rates than black and Hispanic drivers.
„Across race and Hispanic origin, persons who were searched
during traffic stops were less likely than persons who were
not searched to believe the police behaved properly during
the stop.
„About 1% of drivers pulled over in traffic stops had physical
force used against them by police. Of these drivers, 55%
believed the police behaved properly during the stop.
„ About 6 in 10 persons age 16 or older involved in street
stops believed they were stopped for a legitimate reason.

„ About 19% of persons involved in street stops were
searched or frisked by police. The majority of persons who
were searched or frisked did not believe the police had a
legitimate reason for the search.

POLICE BEHAVIOR DURING TRAFFIC AND STREET STOPS, 2011
About 71% of persons involved in streets stops
thought the police behaved properly, compared to
88% of drivers pulled over in traffic stops.

A greater percentage of males (1%) than females (less than
1%) were involved in street stops during 2011. Persons ages
16 to 24 were more likely than persons age 35 or older to be
involved in street stops. While no differences were observed
in the percentage of non-Hispanic white, non-Hispanic
black, and Hispanic populations age 16 or older involved
in a street stop, among those who were stopped, a smaller
percentage of blacks (38%) than Hispanics (63%) or whites
(78%) felt the police behaved properly during the stop.



vikorr
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 06:24 pm
@giujohn,
Do you by chance have a link on that info?
giujohn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 08:17 pm
@vikorr,
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=702
0 Replies
 
nacredambition
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 08:45 pm
@giujohn,
"I note with interest that you have not discounted the math"

Quote:
3.6 TEN THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PRECENT (sic) ...

MATH MATTERS


It's 3.6 ten thousandths of 100 per cent.

giujohn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 08:47 pm
@vikorr,
Having read the doj report on BPD I find interesting that most of it seems to be anecdotal evidence and the Charges that are made such as violating people's constitutional rights unlawful use of force and unlawful arrest I see no mention of any arrest or indictment of police officers who supposedly committed these illegal Acts.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 08:51 pm
@nacredambition,
Oops...that "1" should have been an "a" percent...good catch
nacredambition
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 09:00 pm
@giujohn,
The 1 should have been 100.
giujohn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 15 Aug, 2016 09:03 pm
@nacredambition,
Yup...or I just should have put .0003666666666667%
0 Replies
 
 

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