Same here. Ripe organic tomatoes. Leave money in box, please. Right out on the main highway. That's where I get my tomatoes -- I pronounce them "tom-ah-toes" and get laughed at by the "toe-may-to" gang.
Question: Do you think of yourself as trusting? Overly trusting? Not trusting enough? I find I meander around the world as though nothing will ever happen -- pick up hitchhikers, leave doors unlocked. To tell the truth, except for one Mexican recently, I don't pick up hitchhikers in the US, but in Europe -- all the time. Ditto Mexico.
Next question: Do you live, as I do, in a place where total strangers driving along county roads make eye contact and wave when passing? As the population grows here, I've noticed that the guys in pickups and old-timers and I all greet each other but the newcomers, many in Lexuses and Toyotas and RangeRovers, look straight ahead and do not greet. When the high school kids are driving pop's pickup on Friday evenings, they don't greet either... On a small Maine island where I grew up, one finger lifted from the steering wheel meant "I acknowledge you." Two fingers denoted enthusiastic, even wild, greeting.
values
Trespasserswill, Please what do you mean by an erosion in the values of the populace?
greetings
Yes, Tartarin, the difference you note is, I think, largely explained in terms of structure.
Small rural towns--where most people know one another-- PRESCRIBE greeting behavior, almost as a signal of community co-membership, of togetherness; otherwise you are seen as a snob, which distances you from others. You are seen as trying to move too far away.
Large urban centers--where most people are strangers--tacitly PROSCRIBE greeting behavior. If you greet someone in an anonymous setting, he is likely to suspect you of being up to something. You are trying to get too close.
I've seen this contrast in small towns and large cities with equal clarity in both the U.S. and Mexico.
Folks here are much the same, Tartarin. A nod of the head accompanying the two-fingers-lifted-from-the-steeringwheel gesture is indicative of even heartier sentiment. I guess I'm trusting ... I pick up hitch hikers all the time. I'm a pretty big boy, though, and have a very "Biker-ish" appearance which probably leads strangers to tend toward circumspect interaction. Sam, my 150# Rottweiler, goes just about everywhere I take my truck, too. I suppose his presence is a factor.
A non-native vehicle travelling the road past my house is unusual enough to draw notice ... the road really goes nowhere of interest or convenience to folks without business directly thereon, and isn't paved. I've noticed too a tendency for locals to patiently plod along behind a lumbering piece of agricultural equipment, speeding up when the equipment departs the road (never very long) while "Tourists" generally try to effect a pass as soon as they are able.
My home town used to have signs along many roads enjoining drivers to "Respect Slow Moving Farm Vehicles". I can't recall seeing such a sign for years now. It's like everyone gave up on this quaint notion.
Re: values
JLNobody wrote:Trespasserswill, Please what do you mean by an erosion in the values of the populace?
With respect, I would offer that the need to ask defines the problem nicely. :wink:
I think that question is fodder for a discussion of its own.
Edward Hall, JLNobody. Proxemics. The Hidden Dimension.
distance
Yes, indeed, Tartarin. E.T.Hall is one of my favorites.
Actually, TrespassersWill. my question was a bit of a challenge. I myself often take CHANGES in values (as between the generations) to be "an EROSION in the values of the populace", whereas it is really a CONTRAST between the values of different generations--of age grade populations.
Re: distance
JLNobody wrote:Yes, indeed, Tartarin. E.T.Hall is one of my favorites.
Actually, TrespassersWill. my question was a bit of a challenge. I myself often take CHANGES in values (as between the generations) to be "an EROSION in the values of the populace", whereas it is really a CONTRAST between the values of different generations--of age grade populations.
And I still think it would make a fine discussion of its own.
JLNobody -- There's another thread about "books that changed my life" and I should have mentioned Hall. Can't remember what led me to him but I've never looked at anything the same way since. Wish I still had copies of his books (I left all my books overseas, wish I hadn't).
I think values change enormously from generation to generation and the changes are uneven -- not steady progress but a natural process of progress and erosion. Two steps forward... (We're in a two-steps-back situation now...) My rule of thumb: you can always tell when something's about to be exploited when it becomes common currency -- from beautiful landscapes to the endless talk (currently) of "values"!!
thread
Yes, TW, it certainly would. Why don't YOU open the thread; it's your idea.
I really dont know. However, I will re-read my copy of The Essential Conservative Reader which states:
"Neoconservatism is an attitude that holds social reality to be complex and change difficult. If there is any article of faith common to almost every adherent,it is the law of Unintended Consequences. Things never work out quite as you hope; in particular, government programs often do not achieve thier objectives or do achieve them but with high or unexpected costs.
A neoconservative questions change because, though present circumstances are bad and something ought to be done, it is necessary to do that something cautiously, experimentally, and with a minimum of bureaucratic authority..and perhaps most important of all, neoconservatives embrtace the American conviction that many of the central problems of our society arise out of a want of good character and human virtue.
Whenever I think about our country's problems and am troubled I re-read that excellent paragraph above.
Italgato wrote:I really dont know. However, I will re-read my copy of The Essential Conservative Reader which states:
"Neoconservatism is an attitude that holds social reality to be complex and change difficult. If there is any article of faith common to almost every adherent,it is the law of Unintended Consequences. Things never work out quite as you hope; in particular, government programs often do not achieve thier objectives or do achieve them but with high or unexpected costs.
A neoconservative questions change because, though present circumstances are bad and something ought to be done, it is necessary to do that something cautiously, experimentally, and with a minimum of bureaucratic authority..and perhaps most important of all, neoconservatives embrtace the American conviction that many of the central problems of our society arise out of a want of good character and human virtue.
Whenever I think about our country's problems and am troubled I re-read that excellent paragraph above.
I will be looking for this book. Thanks!
Might I suggest you check out "The Vision of the Annointed" by Thomas Sowell. An excellent read.
virtue
Italgato, I believe that Anarchists would agree that without government good character and human virtue would reign. But maybe that's too romantic. Maybe they mean that if we all had good character and human virtue we could reduce the size of government. As a regulatory body, I find government essential to protect me and mine from the predations of big business. Remember Enroll and the others.
I would also glean from your comments that because of the Law of Unintended Consequences, meaning that things "never work out quite as you hope; in particular, government programs often do not achieve their objectives or do achieve them but with high or unexpected costs," we should very seriously reconsider President Bush's devastatingly expensive and possibly unrealistic long-term tax refund plan. Do you agree?
the manifest fuction of prohibition was meant to enhance good character and virtue.
the latent function of prohibiton was the creation of organized crime.
i would suggest to Bush that the intent to create a free and democratic middle east might well end up creating the exact opposite.
as the missionaries go forth to christianize the savages, i would suggest that they are dangerous enough as they are, let's not toss gas on the fire.
functions
Dys, you said it, man. I love the irony of your warning Bush not to throw gas(oline) on the middle east fire.
Re: virtue
JLNobody wrote:I would also glean from your comments that because of the Law of Unintended Consequences, meaning that things "never work out quite as you hope; in particular, government programs often do not achieve their objectives or do achieve them but with high or unexpected costs," we should very seriously reconsider President Bush's devastatingly expensive and possibly unrealistic long-term tax refund plan. Do you agree?
Leaving money in the hands of those who earned it is not a government program.
Re: virtue
[quote="trespassers will
Quote:Leaving money in the hands of those who earned it is not a government program
.[/quote]
spending money not earned, to be taken from the pockets of our children, to enable the rich to keep more of theirs is good policy tres?
Re: virtue
dyslexia wrote:[quote="trespassers will]
Leaving money in the hands of those who earned it is not a government program.
spending money not earned, to be taken from the pockets of our children, to enable the rich to keep more of theirs is good policy tres?[/quote]
At least the rich seem to know what to do with the money. Why not give it to them?
truth
It's quite obvious that pronouncements by liberals are really directed to other liberals, and pronouncements by conservatives are for the ears of other conservatives. Each "side" must know, if it's honest with itself, that their "opponents" are not listening. We liberals hear conversative utterances with liberal ears and conservatives do the same. It seems that intellectually and politically people are predisposed psychologically to be liberal and relativistic or conservative and absolutistic. Liberals do have the virtue (at least most of them do) of viewing the world in varying shades of grey and great factual and moral complexity; conservatives have the fault (at least most of them do) of viewing the world in black and white and great factual and moral simplicity.
At least that's the way it looks to this liberal. By the way, the only silver lining to be seen in Bush's inanities is that they make the label,"liberal" now look good. I might even get a bumper sticker saying "Proud to be a Liberal."
