1
   

A question for liberals and conservatives...........

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2004 09:04 pm
Too late, dys.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Sep, 2004 09:43 pm
dyslexia wrote:
So I am guessing that you intend to disregard posts by anarchists. Rather sad really and indicative of a lack of knowledge of political philosophy. So say we start with the Code of Hammurabi quite a few centuries B.E. from whence we got such ideas as "an eye for an eye' codified. Moving forward we come to such political ideas as Plato and Aristotle that we have taken as a model for democracy in which actuality demonstrates that some 300 land/slave owning men out of a population in excess of 300,000 constitued "democracy". Try reading Plato's Republic and come away with any sense of fairness or equity towards the common man/woman/child, you can only shake your head in shame that this is what we emulate as "political thinking." Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on thousands of years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners. Governance has been and continues to be the major means of protecting wealth rather than advocating for the well-being of society.
BTW I am the resident anarchist, so may want to just skip over any of my posts in the future.


My pals at www.infoshop.org not withstanding, anarchists try to overthrow current government by means of political disorder and violence. Reaching back to the Code of Hammurabi to justify the violence of the current Anarchist movement is a stretch (except for 141, which might have helped out some of my buddies. Smile

I think a better application of Plato may be his Allegory of the Cave; I think that anarchists let their hatred of any government deceive them to the realities of the Twenty First Century, much like the prisoners facing the wall in Plato's Cave.

As this board's resident anarchist, I guess I should ask you the same question I've asked others with this political belief; if you succeed in overthrowing the United States government, what's your next move?

What's the plan, Sam? Smile Keep in mind, you need to worry about the actions and desires of other world governments, who just might want to swoop in and fill the vacuum you created.

Sorry about disregarding the posts of anarchists in this thread; by definition, I was asking the opinion of those who consider themselves moderate, which any self-respecting anarchist certainly is not. Smile But if you could direct me to other threads about the anarchist in the 21st Century (or start one yourself), I would be very interested in continuing this discussion.....
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 02:23 pm
Re: Faked events.
Olen wrote:
Kerry had a cameraman photograph events after the fact to make them appear as he wanted.


i keep hearing this.

what events did he have filmed ?
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 02:27 pm
If Kerry is that clever, I say vote for him.
0 Replies
 
Olen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 03:36 pm
Kerry made movies.
DTOM: I don't know what date it was, but some of the movies were shown on CNN when this swiftboat thing started. It showed him and his crew going through some action the way it happened, recording it on tape. I am sorry I don't know more and have some concrete data on it.

Olen.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 03:41 pm
Re: Kerry made movies.
Olen wrote:
DTOM: I don't know what date it was, but some of the movies were shown on CNN when this swiftboat thing started. It showed him and his crew going through some action the way it happened, recording it on tape. I am sorry I don't know more and have some concrete data on it.

Olen.


So, if you don't have 'more' or any 'concrete data', why bring it up?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 03:45 pm
well Olen you may be right you silly goose but I am still curious why you would use an avatar of a faked flag-raising at Iwo Jima.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 05:21 pm
dyslexia wrote:
So I am guessing that you intend to disregard posts by anarchists. Rather sad really and indicative of a lack of knowledge of political philosophy. So say we start with the Code of Hammurabi quite a few centuries B.E. from whence we got such ideas as "an eye for an eye' codified. Moving forward we come to such political ideas as Plato and Aristotle that we have taken as a model for democracy in which actuality demonstrates that some 300 land/slave owning men out of a population in excess of 300,000 constitued "democracy". Try reading Plato's Republic and come away with any sense of fairness or equity towards the common man/woman/child, you can only shake your head in shame that this is what we emulate as "political thinking." Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on thousands of years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners. Governance has been and continues to be the major means of protecting wealth rather than advocating for the well-being of society.
BTW I am the resident anarchist, so may want to just skip over any of my posts in the future.



dyslexia, don't leave without responding to my earlier post! I was looking forward to the conversation! Smile
0 Replies
 
Olen
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 06:09 pm
Questions about Kerry and avatar.
cavfancier: I didn't bring up the subject of Kerry faking his activities on tape. I just responded to a topic on the subject.

dyslexia: I didn't think of the flag raising as being faked, I just think it looks patriotic.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 06:18 pm
so "looking patriotic" even faked is ok as long as it's not Kerry doing it? interesting.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 06:51 pm
dyslexia wrote:
so "looking patriotic" even faked is ok as long as it's not Kerry doing it? interesting.


http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/01/bush.carrier.landing/story.bush.main.wave.jpg

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2003/05/02/lincoln.jpg


guess so dys...

olen, i have seen video clips on virtually every network. none of it showed "action" as in combat. one showed a rearward pov of a couple of boats cutting thru the river, no combat. another clip of kerry walking around.

hardly what i'd call staging a real "action hero" moment.

i think the above pictures meet your description much better.

and it bothers me quite a bit that i had to pay for it.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 08:24 pm
dyslexia wrote:
so "looking patriotic" even faked is ok as long as it's not Kerry doing it? interesting.


This is what Olen was referring to:

http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc8.htm

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX WED JULY 28, 2004 12:56:02 ET XXXXX

CONTROVERSY SURROUNDS KERRY CONVENTION FILM: WAR SCENES REENACTED

**World Exclusive**

A bombshell new book written by the man who took over John Kerry's Swift Boat charges: Kerry reenacted combat scenes for film while in Vietnam!

The footage is at the center of a growing controversy in Boston.

The official convention video introducing Kerry is directed by Steven Spielberg protégé James Moll.

MORE

Moll was given hours of Kerry's homemade 8 millimeter film to incorporate into the convention short, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"Kerry carried a home movie camera to record his exploits for later viewing," charges a naval officer in the upcoming book UNFIT FOR COMMAND.

"Kerry would revisit ambush locations for reenacting combat scenes where he would portray the hero, catching it all on film. Kerry would take movies of himself walking around in combat gear, sometimes dressed as an infantryman walking resolutely through the terrain. He even filmed mock interviews of himself narrating his exploits. A joke circulated among Swiftees was that Kerry left Vietnam early not because he received three Purple Hearts, but because he had recorded enough film of himself to take home for his planned political campaigns."

UNFIT FOR COMMAND, Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry, will be unleashed next month by REGNERY. [It ranked #1,318 on the AMAZON hitparade Wednesday morning.]



The films shot by Kerry's own Super 8 millimeter hand-held movie camera have the grainy quality of home movies.

MORE

The BOSTON GLOBE reported in 1996 that the Kerry home movies "reveal something indelible about the man who shot them - the tall, thin, handsome Naval officer seen striding through the reeds in flak jacket and helmet, holding aloft the captured B-40 rocket. The young man so unconscious of risk in the heat of battle, yet so focused on his future ambitions that he would reenact the moment for film. It is as if he had cast himself in the sequel to the experience of his hero, John F. Kennedy, on the PT-109."

"John was thinking Camelot when he shot that film, absolutely," says Thomas Vallely, a fellow veteran and one of Kerry's closest political advisers and friends.

NEW YORK TIMES bestselling author Lt. Col. Robert "Buzz" Patterson in his new book RECKLESS DISREGARD, details one of the claimed Kerry reenactments for film:

"On February 28, 1969, now in charge of PCF 94, Kerry came under fire from an enemy location on the shore. The crew's gunner returned fire, hitting and wounding the lone gunman. Kerry directed the boat to charge the enemy position. Beaching his boat, Kerry jumped off, chased the wounded insurgent behind a thatched hutch, and killed him. Kerry and his crew returned within days, armed with a Super 8 video camera he had purchased at the post exchange at Cam Ranh Bay, and reenacted the skirmish on film."

Developing...

Not sure how much play it got after this; anyone want me to find out?


So dyslexia, are we going to talk about anarchists or not? I would hate to think you are avoiding the issue, being the resident anarchist and all.....
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 08:36 pm
well, it's not easy relating to someone who, from the git-go says I am not worth talking to. However, should you seriously consider a converstation re philosophical anarachy in the modern world, I would be interested. Be forewarned I tend towards the obscure in discourse.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 08:44 pm
A Lone Voice wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
So I am guessing that you intend to disregard posts by anarchists. Rather sad really and indicative of a lack of knowledge of political philosophy. So say we start with the Code of Hammurabi quite a few centuries B.E. from whence we got such ideas as "an eye for an eye' codified. Moving forward we come to such political ideas as Plato and Aristotle that we have taken as a model for democracy in which actuality demonstrates that some 300 land/slave owning men out of a population in excess of 300,000 constitued "democracy". Try reading Plato's Republic and come away with any sense of fairness or equity towards the common man/woman/child, you can only shake your head in shame that this is what we emulate as "political thinking." Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on thousands of years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners. Governance has been and continues to be the major means of protecting wealth rather than advocating for the well-being of society.
BTW I am the resident anarchist, so may want to just skip over any of my posts in the future.


My pals at www.infoshop.org not withstanding, anarchists try to overthrow current government by means of political disorder and violence. Reaching back to the Code of Hammurabi to justify the violence of the current Anarchist movement is a stretch (except for 141, which might have helped out some of my buddies. Smile

I think a better application of Plato may be his Allegory of the Cave; I think that anarchists let their hatred of any government deceive them to the realities of the Twenty First Century, much like the prisoners facing the wall in Plato's Cave.

As this board's resident anarchist, I guess I should ask you the same question I've asked others with this political belief; if you succeed in overthrowing the United States government, what's your next move?

What's the plan, Sam? Smile Keep in mind, you need to worry about the actions and desires of other world governments, who just might want to swoop in and fill the vacuum you created.

Sorry about disregarding the posts of anarchists in this thread; by definition, I was asking the opinion of those who consider themselves moderate, which any self-respecting anarchist certainly is not.[/B] Smile But if you could direct me to other threads about the anarchist in the 21st Century (or start one yourself), I would be very interested in continuing this discussion.....


As I said: Sorry about disregarding the posts of anarchists in this thread ; by definition, I was asking the opinion of those who consider themselves moderate, which any self-respecting anarchist certainly is not.

As I also said: But if you could direct me to other threads about the anarchist in the 21st Century (or start one yourself), I would be very interested in continuing this discussion.....

How about we start with this?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 09:04 pm
ok, let's start with my first premise. Philosophical anarchism is not about "over-throwing" the government. Mostly it's about regulating government functions towards the betterment of society (quality of life) within the fine balance of preserving individual freedoms.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 09:29 pm
Will it be possible to go straight to an anarchist society from capitalism?

"If it is meant a fully classless society (what some people, inaccurately, would call a "utopia") then the answer is a clear "no, that would be impossible." Anarchists are well aware that "class difference do not vanish at the stroke of a pen whether that pen belongs to the theoreticians or to the pen-pushers who set out laws or decrees. Only action, that is to say direct action (not through government) expropriation by the proletarians, directed against the privileged class, can wipe out class difference." [Luigi Fabbri, "Anarchy and 'Scientific' Communism", in The Poverty of Statism, pp. 13-49, Albert Meltzer (ed.), p. 30]

Am I making assumptions in what 'direct action' is? It sounds like 'violent overthrow' to me. Kind of like what happen to the Czar?


Another favorite:

"we know that an uprising can overthrow and change a government in one day, while a revolution needs three or four years of revolutionary convulsion to arrive at tangible results . . . if we should expect the revolution, from its earliest insurrections, to have a communist character, we would have to relinquish the possibility of a revolution, since in that case there would be need of a strong majority to agree on carrying through a change in the direction of communism." [Kropotkin, quoted by Max Nettlau, A Short History of Anarchism, pp. 282-3]

But anarchist are not communists?



Two quick examples of what I would define as an anarchist call for overthrowing the government (oops, I mean 'direct action'?)

One thing I'm not sure of d, is this: Are their different levels of anarchy? When people label conservatives, they are trying to buttonhole people who are moderate Repubs to extreme right-wing nut jobs.

Might it be the same in your case?
0 Replies
 
Brandy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 10:17 pm
I'm not sure whether the author of this thread does or does not wish to discuss anarchy. I do think that the flag raising on Iwo Jima was not "faked" and its symbolism is not fake either.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/iwoflag.htm
0 Replies
 
Chuckster
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Sep, 2004 11:15 pm
Well you sure got a bunch of replies to your naive questions. Perhaps a college level course on Political Science and World History would serve you better. For example, inquiries as to whether what ever happens in US politics may have some positive or negative effect over how we are viewed by other countries around the world reveals how terribly clueless you really are. We do things on the basis of the practical validity of the action and rarely, if ever, to court world favor. That's simply the way it is. With a little education and maturity it might be interesting to see what improvement you might achieve in your future inquiries.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 12:00 am
Chuckster! Why the hostility? I thought it was a pretty simple question; perhaps if you read the entire question for context, and not just the last few lines, it might help a bit?

But to clarify: Does the unrelenting hostility after an election harm a president and his administration in dealing with other countries? Does attacking a president after an election give the impression to the 'eyes of the world' that he is incompetent and lacking the support of his electorate?

Thanks for the advice on schooling; you might try a high school level reading comprehension course yourself. Smile
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Sep, 2004 12:09 am
Brandy wrote:
I'm not sure whether the author of this thread does or does not wish to discuss anarchy. I do think that the flag raising on Iwo Jima was not "faked" and its symbolism is not fake either.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/iwoflag.htm


Brandy, welcome!

We can talk about anything! But you might want to direct your question/comment about Iwo Jima to Olen and dyslexia, as they were having that paticular beef.
0 Replies
 
 

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