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Would SBVFT consider Bush 'fit for command'?

 
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2004 11:22 pm
JustWonders points out:

Quote:
As for President Bush's military record, it was addressed in 2000. Many voters didn't believe the lies then, and my prediction is they aren't believing them now.


And, as you pointed out, they ARE lies. And it's a plethora of lies that this administration continuously dishes out. That would include our insatiable appetite for the unfettered access to Iraqi oil. THAT is what our soldiers are currently dying for. Nothing more.

You have NO idea how many Americans see Bush as a traitor. It is why the nation is so evenly divided. And this would be based on his already 3 1/2 years of a dismal record in the White House.

McCain and Kerry are both Vietnam veterans. McCain was ALSO a POW, and one who DOESN'T hold a grudge against Kerry. McCain also took offense to the smear tactics from the Swift Boat idiots. They worked together in resolving MIA issues in Vietnam. They are friends. Is that puzzling to you?

Unless you are willing to truly discuss the Vietnam war (which I'm sure you aren't, for the parallels between that and Iraq are becoming more self-evident everyday), then the context of these discussions will be sorely lacking of historical record and relevance.

McCain is campaigning for Bush because he's a REPUBLICAN. Unless you're privy to party loyalties and what it does in compromising the integrity of members from BOTH sides of the aisle, you wouldn't understand.

It's the same argument on Kerry voting for the $87 billion before he voted against it. What neoconservatives will NEVER tell you is this is how CONGRESS WORKS, and that a bi-partisan group of congressmen were pushing instead for loans to accomodate the money vs. a grant. But the ultra rightwingers pushed the grant instead, which further put America's fiscal prudence in doubt. In a VERY similar veign, McCain voted against a breast cancer research bill due to the loaded pork and irresponsible spending that was thrown in at the 11th hour (which happens ALL the time on congress, JustWonders). As a result, Bush decided to use that against McCain in stating that he was against breast cancer research, which wasn't the case at all.

JustWonders is a name that makes sense for you. You seem to continuously just wonder how Congress works. If you did, these smears would NEVER hold water in America. But people are too stupid to understand how government works.

Very sad...
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 02:10 am
JustWonders wrote:
McCain is actively campaigning for President Bush. He is doing all he can to see that Kerry is not elected.

Please define "all". If your definition applies to McCain's campaigning for Bush, I suspect that my English teachers here in Germany did a very bad job teaching me that word.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 06:43 am
Dookiestix wrote:
JustWonders points out:

Quote:
As for President Bush's military record, it was addressed in 2000. Many voters didn't believe the lies then, and my prediction is they aren't believing them now.


And, as you pointed out, they ARE lies. And it's a plethora of lies that this administration continuously dishes out. That would include our insatiable appetite for the unfettered access to Iraqi oil. THAT is what our soldiers are currently dying for. Nothing more.
Quote:


If they are lies, and you admit they are , why does the left keep making them? I am sorry that you have fallen for the false belief that this is a war for oil. I am still waiting for that first tanker of free Iraqi oil to pull into dock.

Quote:
You have NO idea how many Americans see Bush as a traitor. It is why the nation is so evenly divided. And this would be based on his already 3 1/2 years of a dismal record in the White House.


A traitor? How in the heck could ANYONE think Bush was a traitor? I can understand the left not liking him, even hating him. I can understand the whole "Bush is an idiot" thing, but traitor? I don't see that.

Quote:
McCain and Kerry are both Vietnam veterans. McCain was ALSO a POW, and one who DOESN'T hold a grudge against Kerry. McCain also took offense to the smear tactics from the Swift Boat idiots. They worked together in resolving MIA issues in Vietnam. They are friends. Is that puzzling to you?

Unless you are willing to truly discuss the Vietnam war (which I'm sure you aren't, for the parallels between that and Iraq are becoming more self-evident everyday), then the context of these discussions will be sorely lacking of historical record and relevance.


There are no parallels other than both being wars that you can reasonably make outside the realm of conspiract theory and fantasy. You may beilieve there are parallels, and you may be giving into the liberal hype there are parallels, but there aren't.

Quote:
McCain is campaigning for Bush because he's a REPUBLICAN. Unless you're privy to party loyalties and what it does in compromising the integrity of members from BOTH sides of the aisle, you wouldn't understand.

It's the same argument on Kerry voting for the $87 billion before he voted against it. What neoconservatives will NEVER tell you is this is how CONGRESS WORKS, and that a bi-partisan group of congressmen were pushing instead for loans to accomodate the money vs. a grant. But the ultra rightwingers pushed the grant instead, which further put America's fiscal prudence in doubt. In a VERY similar veign, McCain voted against a breast cancer research bill due to the loaded pork and irresponsible spending that was thrown in at the 11th hour (which happens ALL the time on congress, JustWonders). As a result, Bush decided to use that against McCain in stating that he was against breast cancer research, which wasn't the case at all.


Interesting take, I can even agree with most of that.

Quote:
JustWonders is a name that makes sense for you. You seem to continuously just wonder how Congress works. If you did, these smears would NEVER hold water in America. But people are too stupid to understand how government works.

Very sad...


There are people out there, and on here that are seriously into politics and that have a firmer grasp on how Congress works that make these smears stick. Campaigning for office has zero to do with how Congress works. I thought you would now that.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 06:51 am
McGentrix wrote:
A traitor? How in the heck could ANYONE think Bush was a traitor? I can understand the left not liking him, even hating him. I can understand the whole "Bush is an idiot" thing, but traitor? I don't see that.


I agree with McG.

Bush is not a traitor.

He is much too stupid to be a traitor.

But his administration...incompetents that they are...are probably doing more to abet terrorism than to fight it. Which, of course, makes America (and the rest of the world) a less safe place in which to live.

And because of that, I guess a sort of case for the administration being a traitorous administration could be made...although even I would admit it is a bit of a reach.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 09:09 am
McGentrix writes:

Quote:
I am sorry that you have fallen for the false belief that this is a war for oil. I am still waiting for that first tanker of free Iraqi oil to pull into dock.


Um, that's because the insurgents keep blowing up the oil rigs. I would suggest looking up the Carter Doctrine and the Project for a New Century, and then maybe you won't have to buy that clue. The Bush-Saudi oil ties are stunning as well. Geez, what are we doing in Iraq when 17 out of the 19 hijackers were Saudis?

If there are no parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, then why has Vietnam come back to haunt us so much? Kerry is not solely responsible for this, nor is John O'Neil. But Iraq is the predominant catalyst driving this debate. Otherwise, we wouldn't be talking about apples at an Orange Festival.

Quote:
Interesting take, I can even agree with most of that.


It's actually the truth, McGentrix if you bothered to look it up.

Quote:
There are people out there, and on here that are seriously into politics and that have a firmer grasp on how Congress works that make these smears stick. Campaigning for office has zero to do with how Congress works. I thought you would now that.


Then why haven't I heard a single mention from these people regarding the detailed circumstances of these smears? Not even Bush can explain these circumstances, for if he did, his smear then would not stick. Like John McCain being against breast cancer research.

Do YOU believe John McCain is against breat cancer research? Oh, and that he adopted a "black" baby? (Indian, actually)
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 09:24 am
Nationality has little to do with terrorism. we attacked Afghanistan because they harbored terrorists. We attacked Iraq because Saddam supports terrorism and had WMD's. I don't care if the hijackers were Sadi Arabian, Lebanese or French. It's the organization that needs to be attacked, not the home country of a terrorist. If saudi Arabia had funded the hijackers, I have no doubt that we would have laid into them, but they didn't.

I am quite familiar with the Project for a new American Century and I endorse many sections of it. the left loves to use it as a weapon against the Republicans because they are afraid of a strong america and they are afraid that thier misplaced sensbilities might become damaged.

Viet Nam has come back to haunt us because the aging liberals in America won't let it go. They keep bringing it up as though it will someday rise from the ashes and bite them in the ass.

You hear from those people every day, in the news media, on TV and from capitol hill.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 09:30 am
McGentrix wrote:
I am quite familiar with the Project for a new American Century and I endorse many sections of it. the left loves to use it as a weapon against the Republicans because they are afraid of a strong america and they are afraid that thier misplaced sensbilities might become damaged.


Well, I can't speak for the left, but I can tell you why I like to bring it up. I think it shows a couple of things. One is that Bush, who didn't come into the presidency with a clear foreign policy agenda, basically adopted theirs (PNAC), and didn't exactly shop around before choosing it. The other is that, with these ideas having floated around for several years before Bush came to power, it's hard to believe that they didn't use 911 as a justification to do something they already REALLY wanted to do (invade Iraq that is). It just reinforces my mistrust of government in general and this administration in general.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 09:32 am
McGentrix:

Quote:
If saudi Arabia had funded the hijackers, I have no doubt that we would have laid into them, but they didn't.


How could you possibly know with absolution that Saudi Arabia didn't fund the hijackers?

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0813-04.htm

"Administration officials have relentlessly flogged the phony notion that Iraq had something to do with the terrorist attacks of 9/11, while simultaneously bending over backwards to avoid fingering the Saudis. Thanks in large part to the Bush administration¹s insinuations about Iraq, 66 percent of Americans surveyed last year said they believed Saddam Hussein was involved in the September 11. A separate poll, conducted in January, found that half of those surveyed thought one or more of the September 11 terrorist hijackers were Iraqi citizens. In fact, none were, but 15 of the 19 were citizens of Saudi Arabia."
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 09:39 am
McGentrix wrote:
Nationality has little to do with terrorism. we attacked Afghanistan because they harbored terrorists. We attacked Iraq because Saddam supports terrorism and had WMD's.


It seems we have a bit of trouble here with separating fact from fiction. It has been pretty clearly established that Saddam did not have weapons of mass destruction....and that he was an implacable enemy of Osama Bin Laden.

In fact, there are several states that have weapons of mass destruction...and there are several states that have confirmed ties to terrorists.

But Bush went after Saddam.

It wasn't about oil. It was about daddy being embarrassed.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 09:39 am
McG,

Saudi Arabia was notorious for having telethons to raise money for terrorists. During one 4-day period they raised over a hundred million dollars for terrorist causes.

And you think we should have attacked Iraq first?

Get realistic and cut the petty justifications. We have major allies in Saudi Arabia, including ties between the ruling families of both countries, so we didn't attack them. Simple as that.

This more than anything else says to me that we aren't really interested in ending the war on terror, when it is so profitable (economically and politically) to keep it going...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 10:55 am
Is Bush a traitor? Or not?

Let's make either case.
Quote:
traitor: One who betrays one's country, a cause, or a trust, especially one who commits treason.

Quote:
treason: 1) Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
2) A betrayal of trust or confidence.


Looking at 'treason' def 1), we note the hoary 'sovereign' sitting in his big chair, demanding total allegiance, and where it's not forthcoming, treason is abroad in the land. That is the Bush administration's functional definition(and the definition held by more than a few conservatives)...speaking against the President or his policies, particularly during a time of war (Viet Nam or Iraq or Grenada or Panama, etc) is tantamount to treason.

That's a nice and simple understanding of treason, and it's a nice and simple understanding of civic duty, and it's a nice and simple way to understand how folks are arranged in a totalitarian state. Under this definition, Bush isn't a traitor, and the citizens who really are become quite easy to identify.

If we look at definition 2) of treason, "betrayal of trust or confidence", things get a tad more ambiguous and complicated, which might go some distance to explaining the lack of popularity of this definition in some quarters.

Under this definition, even a soveriegn might be defined, properly, as a traitor if the notion is abroad that this sovereign is himself bound by codes or principles which are intrinsic to the polity. Constitutional principles, legal principles, moral/ethical principles, or most relevant to our case here, democratic principles.

A democratic principle such as the elected representative being in the service of his constituency, for example. Thus such an elected representative who operates more in the service of a relatively small coterie of friends and business associates when such will work against the common good, could reasonably consider a traitorous act. So, for example, say that even in the face of overwhelming evidence that the country was being damaged and its future possibilities at clear risk, but that the representative ignored the evidence so that his associates would continue to enjoy huge prosperity, and said something like, "Yes, I read what those bureaucrats said." That could be considered, by any rational measure, in the clear direction of traitorous.

Or a democratic principle like honesty. Say a representative lied and spun so often that the citizenry became apathetic regarding governance and leaders,and withdrew in signigicant ways and numbers from the democratic process. Numerous or continuous betrayals of trust and confidence such as what we see in this example...
Quote:
Trust in ministers has slumped to a critical low following the Iraq war and the death of the weapons expert David Kelly, a survey of attitudes towards public figures has shown.

Tony Blair's style of government has also led to serious public concerns about "spin" and less than a quarter of people now trust ministers to tell the truth.


link

So, the case could be made that Bush is a traitor.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 11:08 am
Quote:
Saudi Arabia was notorious for having telethons to raise money for terrorists. During one 4-day period they raised over a hundred million dollars for terrorist causes.

And you think we should have attacked Iraq first?


And we could make note of good buddy Pakistan. There is much to commend this bastion of freedom. Like, for one cute example, the protection of the single indidividual most central to the spread of nuclear weapons technology (and his buddies in the military/government structure who did very well indeed) to North Korea and other such scenic international tourist destinations.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 05:18 pm
Quote:
JustWonders is a name that makes sense for you. You seem to continuously just wonder how Congress works. If you did, these smears would NEVER hold water in America. But people are too stupid to understand how government works.

Very sad...


Hmmmm. I won't make any comments about choices of names LOL.

My only observation is that it seems insulting people and calling them stupid somehow makes it easier for you to cope.

Very sad...

PS This is in response to "Dookiestix" LOL.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 05:31 pm
JustWonders:

Then you understand why Kerry first voted for the $87 billion, and then voted against it out of a concern for fiscal prudence and just not giving the pResident a blank check in which to bankrupt the nation.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 06:24 pm
I probably understand more than you give me credit for. The most important thing I understand (and something you won't ever understand) is why President Bush will be elected for four more years.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2004 07:09 pm
Why?
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 09:22 am
What is it I don't understand about pResident Idiot being elected for four more years? Reverse psychology doesn't seem to be your forte at the moment.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 09:53 am
Sorry, Clinton had his term.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 10:05 am
and Hitlery has two terms in front of her.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2004 11:07 am
The only terms Hitlary faces is the possibility of jail terms.
0 Replies
 
 

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