Would SBVFT consider Bush 'fit for command'?

Good question, Cycloptichorn, and one I'm sure one of those tortured or their families would be happy to answer should you pose it to them.

Kerry was against the war in Vietnam before he joined the Navy (after seeking a deferment and being turned down), so we might also ask why he went in the first place.

Sozobe - you're right - I only know what some of the vets have said they would do, and it's much more their place to answer the question than mine.

As for the test of it - I personally think the real test will be on November 2.

I'll agree with that, JW!

You can be against the war and still go. There are plenty of troops in Iraq right now who are against the war, but still doing their duty.

He went for the same reason many people went - to avoid the draft. I don't consider it a mark of cowardice to want to have a position other than the front lines.

I think that this story, like most, falls somewhere in the middle of the extremes being touted. I've no doubt that Kerry went to Vietnam, and served well there; he probably also did some things wrong there. He is human, yaknow. After he came back, he was pissed off at the war and gave a speech about it in front of congress. Lots of vets were pissed off back then and the nation was just getting wind of how bad things had gotten.

I think the real test will be on the 2nd, as well. The next few months could be real rocky for America, because it's gonna get worse before it gets better in this election...

Cycloptichorn

It's always interesting to read what the Vietnam vets on this site have to say.

Four more years

Not if most of the vets here at A2K have anything to say about it.

:::

The simple answer to that is that there was a draft in place. I guess he could have gone to Canada, but he didn't.

McGentrix opines:



It matters in every sense of the word, as this moron took us into a completely unecessary war in Iraq. His inability to articulate his experiences in the National Guard are the most telling. Whereas Kerry will recall in detail his Vietnam experiences and his eloquently articulated statements in opposition after he returned home, Bush really doesn't have anything to say about his NG experience, other than that he flew planes. And that's pretty much it.

Character

It matters because we expect wisdom from a President in making informed decisions, rather than the idiocy of a moron who doesn't read much, takes LOTS of vacations, and cannot speak in proper english. It matters because it says a lot about a man's character regarding what he did during the Vietnam war; Whereas Cheney had multiple deferments and Bush got a free ticket to the NG Champagne Squadron, Kerry actually fought in Vietnam. Whether he was in Cambodia on a specific night is utter bullsh*t from the Right; it's pathetic. John O'Neil told Nixon in 1971 that HE was in Cambodia. The Swift Boat vets case has been unraveling for a while now. It isn't working. In the end, Americans will see the smear, and perhaps vote above it for Kerry. Because it IS smear. Plain and simple.

Character

All Kerry has to do it tell the truth about the absolute failed and neofascist policies of the Bush administration.

Character

Where's the mystery here for you neocons?

This man abused his brain for YEARS, and the damage has been readily on display since he was placed in office by the USSC. Bush's brain is a vacuous place in which wind can freely blow. It cannot comprehend what integrity and character is all about, because there is none.

Republicans are desperate and losing the American people. It generally happens to one party or another when they have full control of the Government.

The fact that so many conservatives consider the number one compelling reason for voting (you will excuse the expression) to re-elect George Dumbya Bush...

...is because they consider him STRONG in the fight against terrorism...defies common sense.

This administration has been one of the greatest things ever to happen to terrorist recruitment...and to terrorism in general....

...and has managed to lower our esteem in the eyes of the rest of the world to its lowest point ever.

This is a FAILED administration that not only does not deserve to continue in power...it ought be used as a poster child for how the United States ought NOT to conduct itself in the modern world.

Frank Apisa:



Amen!!

I have never, and will never expect wisdom from anyone younger than 27.

Character? Neither candidate has expressed much character, but I will stick to the one that better represents what I beleive in.

The whole swift boat issue has arisen from the fact that Kerry has used his service in Viet Nam like a cloak of protection. He pushed his medals to the forefront of his campaign and some people have stated that they don't believe he earned them. It's their right to do so.

Kerry has 20 years of public service to campaign on and instead he has decided that 4 months in Viet Nam trumps that. He lost focus and is being called to the carpet on it.

The whole Swift Boat issue has been financed by Bush operatives, because the Bush administration cannot afford to have his National Guard records in the public light. Bush is entirely vulnerable with this issue, and so idiots like John O'Neil and the rest of these lying swifties will do anything to descredit a man who actually WENT to Vietnam and fought.

This is beyond disengenuous. It is disgusting, and an obviously failed smear campaign that will only backfire.

It is also blatantly obvious.

Kerry has more character on his little finger than George Bush has in his entire body.

4 months in Vietnam? He served for a year on another boat before his second tour as a swift boat commander. At least do us a favor and keep the facts straight.

Unlike Dumbya, who cannot remember (unlike Kerry) who the fvck he served with in the NG.

As far as the wisdom of anyone under 27, many of them are voting Kerry, almost by a 2:1 margin.

I consider that wise, as many of them see what Bush is doing to their future.

bush most certainly did take credit for military duty he DID NOT fulfill.

All Texans ARE NOT in love with bush.

For some reason I have a strong image of the Tom Berringer character in Platoon - the type that likes war and likes leading new recruits into harms way.

The swift boat veterans were like that character when they were young they would like you to believe. It's a wonder they are alive.

I understand they are considering a sequel: Vietnam for Amnesiacs.

Can someone find a way to slip this into a Kerry speech?

I won't quibble about the phrase "… centerpoint of his campaign…", however, John Kerry has, throughout his career in the Senate made a big, visible deal about his service in Vietnam. This continued throughout the early democrat primaries and into the early phases of the current campaign. He has repeatedly in his own speeches and public commentaries gone out of his way to work in references to his service in Vietnam, and has done so in a way that seems very odd to those of us who served there. In recent weeks there has been a concerted effort on the part of the Kerry campaign to de-emphasize the "War on terrorism and Kerry's service in Vietnam precisely because his political handlers have observed these issues don't play well for him.

The fact is that there has long been a great deal of seriously felt antipathy within the Navy for Kerry, based mostly on the perception of his treachery and self-aggrandizement in his testimony on behalf of the "Vietnam Veterans Against the War" soon after he left the Navy, at his own request, based in his accumulation of three Purple Hearts, presumably for wounds incurred in battle, during a 13 week tour in swift boats. (Wounds for which there is no record of medical treatment beyond the application of a Band-Aid.) He represents a type of individual, fortunately very rare, who actively sought combat awards, even writing his own citations, and then misused them both to escape further service and to falsely accuse those with whom he served of atrocities, which he, much later, denied he ever observed. It may be difficult for those who have not had these experiences to understand the contempt and anger this behavior elicits on the part of those few who exhibit it, but I can tell you it is very real.

My experience in life tells me this indicates serious defects in the man's moral character. I may of course be wrong in this - certainty in such things is not possible. However the perception is enough that I would not hire Kerry for a position of responsibility, want him as a wingman in my squadron, or wish to see him as our President.

george, we've gone a few rounds on this already. I've been impressed with your concession that your objections really stem from the fact that you plain don't like the guy. You're entitled to your dislike, but here you're repeating falsehoods again. ("Falsely accused of atrocities", "Much later denied he ever observed", etc., etc.)

I already showed they're falsehoods, you already acknowledged as much, why repeat them yet again?

Meanwhile, how do you feel about Bush's character now that it is becoming more evident than ever that he did not fulfill his guard duties, to the point that if procedure had been followed he should have been sent into combat (but inexplicably, wasn't)?

I have sources for that if you'd like.

Disclaimer, again, that it doesn't personally matter to me. But...