Move to make circumcision illegal

Guiler claims to have Pick's Disease.
Shocked

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dlowan:

Most observant Jewish and Muslim men are circumsized. Do you really think these two groups of men are masturbating excesively? With their commitment to a routine of fasting and prayer, when would they find time to masturbate to excess? Rolling Eyes

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Let's be honest - a study that delves into human sex practices is going to be much more interesting than one that looks at morphological changes in plant callus tissue produced by tissue culture. Alright already, yes I DID work to produce callus in plant material via tissue culture - and it was better than sex, I can tell you!!!

OK, I am very sad. And people despise me. Happy?

I have got to say that really if you're doing a study of... well... onanism, you are going to take the evidence as being a little suspect. There may be those frank enough to 'lay it all on the line' and some who are going to fudge a little. It's a curious thing, but I'd be more likely to believe the results of a study in masturbation than one dealing with a topic like honest behaviour. Those researchers ask something like 'Would you do A or B under these circumstances'? Everyone says Answer A (the one that requires honest behaviour). The researchers then film people in the situation and they all do Answer B. Lying dishonest bastards. But, something you do in private (I assume) and there's no way to confirm or negate your answers, what have you got to lose?

Apart from your eyesight.......

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I do not think that circumcision should be completely illegal, but it is necessary to prohibit to parents to circumcise kids under age of 18. Everyone having reached this age should decide alone whether to undergo the operation or not. I know that this contradicts the norms of Judaism and Islam, but, IMHO, kids should decide whether they want to be adherents of this religion only after having become mature enough to make a proper decision regarding their bodies and conscience.

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Prohibit the procedure on children < 18 years of age?

Does not conform with Jewish law. Shocked

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Steissed, maybe it's a little like the chicken pox, it hurts less when you're a kid.

As a medical assistant in the 1970s I assisted a doctor in this procedure. It wasn't an "operation" it was brutal and I could bearly stand watching. There was no attempt whatsoever to ease the pain to this tiny 6-week-old baby.

My mother-in-law used to volunteer at hospitals. 1960-1970. Prior to circumcision procedure she said the babies were given a tsp. of whiskey. That was then, though, and in that operating room.

I do recall being sooo relieved after my 2 sons were circumcised, just knowing it was over for them. No mother should know. But, perhaps it isn't as painful a day or so after birth?

Tex-Star

That's what they say about chopping the tails off dogs, too.

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steissd wrote:

I do not think that circumcision should be completely illegal, but it is necessary to prohibit to parents to circumcise kids under age of 18.

On what basis should the parents be stripped of the right to make decisions on the behalf of their minor children? Should they also be restricted from taking their child to a doctor to get immunizations? Some of those shots hurt pretty badly! Should we also prevent parents from taking their children to the dentist to have cavities drilled/filled?

Where is the line drawn and who gets to make that decision?

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Tex-star, you're right about the pain, and seems that you're right about the recovery, too.

Quote:

We have a long history of underestimating the abilities of babies. Not long ago, we doctors were taught that babies couldn't see. Doctors waved brightly colored toys in front of babies, and the infants did not respond. Doctors flicked their fingers in front of babies' eyes, and the infants did not blink. Mothers' of course, reported that their babies gazed into their eyes, but this was attributed to wishful thinking.

It was not babies' eyes that were the problem, but doctors' tests! When faces or targets (nipple shapes) were held in front of babies, they were fascinated. We now know that newborns see quite well -- albeit primarily in black and white. Their interests, though, in that precious newborn stage are highly focused on connecting with their parents and on feeding. We also know that their excellent senses of smell, taste, and hearing are even more sensitive than ours are. They can distinguish their mother's nursing pads from those of other nursing women by smell alone!

That article then talks about effective pain control and that the kids are "mostly" all better within 24 hours, except for things like experiencing greater trauma when they get vaccinated.

http://www.drgreene.com/21_759.html

This one seems kind of extreme, but does contain actual data (warning, graphic picture):

http://www.circumstitions.com/Pain.html

This is an interesting article:

http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-1-0/10-1-circumcision85.shtml

(Edited out some more graphic prose.)

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Hiya,
I was chuckling earlier, at the proposed reporting of "frequency of self pleasuring" that fishin' mentioned,..it was funny! Laughing

Now, I don't think that it can or should be regulated, it will always fall back to religious beliefs and the family history. Realisticly, though it is quite painful,.it is a rather benign practice, kind of like clipping the ears on a Doberman,..just in a more personal area. I do believe that if you choose to have it done, it must be done to a baby.

WARNING Here comes more about me than you really need to know:

I never had it done, but at points in my childhood wished I had,..all of my friends were, and it did make me feel different,....but that's just growing up,..it doesn't take much to make you feel different.
The extra sensitivity has been nice as an adult, but sometimes it can be too sensitive, bordering painful, especially during oral sex,.and just after orgasm.

My brother-in-law got his foreskin caught in his fly Shocked

, and had to be circumcised at 35 years old,..said it was the most painful thing he's ever been through,..see it's not just the procedure, you're dealing with a very sensitive organ, that had been "sheathed", now uncovered and rubbing against your underwear and such,..takes some time to deaden those nerves.

Just some thoughts!

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steissd

Quote:

I do not think that circumcision should be completely illegal, but it is necessary to prohibit to parents to circumcise kids under age of 18. Everyone having reached this age should decide alone whether to undergo the operation or not

Just the thought of being circumcised at the age of 18 or older makes me shudder. It is at that age an extremely painful experience. If it is going to be done at all infancy is the right time to do it. It has been practiced by the Jewish people for thousands of years with no ill effects and was no doubt designed to foster health and cleanliness. I should note that circumcision is a ritual that all Jews secular and religious adhere to. To ban it would be a slap at religious freedom.
The Moslems also circumcise their young men but I believe at about the age of 12. Oh that hurts.

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Sozobe, thank you for the links. I wonder why we just accept practices, no questions. I can see why circumcision is not only not necessary, but brutal and gruesome. I always thought, without even considering asking, that the foreskin is removed for reasons of "cleanliness," and here these links say the opposite.

I had my babies in the 1960s and my doctor thought it unnecessary that I nurse. What for, how messy and inconvenient, when they have those bottles with the hard rubber nipples. We also laid flat on our backs to during labor - ouch and good God!

I still cannot ever forget that baby being circumcised at 6 weeks and how he screamed so hard he quit breathing, sweat poured off his entire body. Still makes me cry. A human being could not ever forget anything like that.

Would you mothers & dads please read the links? We need some education on this subject, yes we do.

Tex-Star

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A mild topical anesthetic would have prevented the pain. Shocked

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New Haven, not sure about mild. The last article I linked to talks about how a newborn's foreskin is stuck to the shaft like a fingernail is to a finger (natural retraction happens much later), so it's not just a nice neat snippity-snip, but an open wound. Shocked

That article is a bit over the top in several ways, but has lots of references listed and seems to generally be a good synthesis of existing information.

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Tex-Star
By Jewish law the circumcision is performed a week after birth. It is not as you say brutal. What happens is after the cutting the baby will have a little whiskey rubbed on his lips and that is all the so called anesthesia that is needed. Have been to several circumcisims including both my sons and they are far from brutal.

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Well, au1929, they do not remember the moment they have undergone this operation. People usually do not have reminiscences from their early infancy period. But I am almost sure that infants are able to feel pain; and when the living body is cut without any appropriate anesthesia (I am not sure if anesthesia should be applied to 8-days-old infants in absence necessity to save life) the people feel pain. Penis is quite a sensitive area, and it does not lack pain receptors.

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When my son was born he was not circumcised, which was fine with me. But my wife was uncertain and her sister went ballistic when I resisted. She said the skin was stuck so it could not move back and therefore the procedure was absolutely necessary. I knew that as he grew it would be just fine, but I let her railroad me into it. I have regretted the decision I made for thirty years. After all, as I earlier pointed out, men in my family history have never been circumcised in any cases I am aware of and there have never been any disease or other problems as a result.

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AU:

I agree!

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au, OK, but please explain why the procedure is necessary, in connection with religion? Although, I'm sure the word "religion" wasn't yet being used zillions of years ago. Seems to me I've read the real and underlying definition for "religion" is just simply: how one lives his/her life every day. There must be a distinction as to circumcision then/circumcision today. IS is still for the same reason?

I don't remember why this baby was being circumcised at 6 weeks or whether anesthesia was being used but just recall being struck by what was happening with the baby. Does seem our creator would put the foreskin there to keep the penis clean, protect the glands, just as in baby girls.

Tex-Star

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Tex-Star
Are you asking me to explain the religious beliefs and practices of religion. Religion any religion is built on tradition, rituals, fate and myths. You either believe or you don't. Many of the traditions we now follow had meaning eons ago but in this modern world they do not. However, once a law or tradition is established change becomes almost impossible. As far as circumcision is concerned there is little doubt that it was done in the interest of cleanliness.

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Tex
I should add that circumcisions have been pretty common here in the states for many years because the medical community felt it advisable for the maintenance of cleanliness. That is the same reason that they were being performed 2000 years ago.
As to why they became part of the religious ritual. How better to get people to conform than to make it a religious imperative.

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Move to make circumcision illegal

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