Religious belief and politics

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I keep hearing the argument that Kerry is a waffle because he, as a Catholic, believes that abortion is murder yet he still supports a woman's right to chose.

What I don't hear anyone ever talk about is how Richard Nixon set aside his Quaker teachings of pacifism.

I was just a young girl during the Nixon administration and I confess that I did not pay close attention. I also don't know a whole heck of a lot about the Quaker faith.

I would appreciate any enlightenment you could give me about whether Nixon's religious beliefs ever caused any commotion like Kerry's beliefs are.

Why or why not?

Thank you!

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http://www.beliefnet.com/story/40/story_4011_1.html

Other WWW sites also mention that Nixon was not a practicing Quaker during his adult life.

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In response to your post, I 'd say that Nixon had other troubles that occupied the American public at the time. You also have to look at the fact that this country is going through a significant "spiritual" revival. You have all kinds of public personalities voicing their "belief" or lack thereof. That is one thing I can admire about President Bush, although I don't think he is a good President. Oprah went through a season or two of her show with a little end segment where she did something about spirituality. I think it is good to practice what you preach but then you have to realize that when you wear your religion on your sleeve for all to see they will hold you to a much higher standard than they would someone who is not quiet as vocal about it. I like what Ron Reagan said of his father at the graveside services. He spoke of how his father was a very spiritual man but he was not one to wear it on his sleeve. He kind of took a jab at the current President.
Sometimes I feel like the current administration is on a mission to force their morals and their beliefs upon the American public. What do you think?

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Hmmm.. Actually, I guess his Quaker background did have a lot of influence but most of what was going on seems to have been internal squabbles within the Quaker church itself.

For some enlightening reading on Nixon and the Quaker faith:
http://www.kimopress.com/nixon.html

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Hi fishin! So good to see you. I'm going to check out those links and report back....

Hi to you too, PKB! I don't know if its so much about wearing religion on their sleeve that makes one hold them to a higher standard. I think its their arrogance about the rightness of their position. Newt Gingrich immediatly comes to mind as someone who demanded high morals of everyone but himself while arrogantly preaching his perfection.

I do have a problem with the religious revival happening in politics but mostly in the way that it seems to prevent our public servants from truly serving the public.

One of the best examples I can give of this is when we were having the big battle over physician assisted suicide here in Oregon. Our then governer, Kitzhauber, was himself a doctor and was personally opposed to PAS and he was vocal about his opposition. When PAS passed by a landslide vote, he signed it into law. When Ashcroft began his attacks against the law Kitzhauber did as he promised and served the Oregon public by fighting in favor of the law.

I really admire him for putting his own personal feelings aside and doing his job.

By the same turn, I'm a bit abashed that people are criticizing Kerry for his abortion and gay marriage positions and using this as a reason to not vote for him. I doubt I'm alone in this giving me more reason to vote for him.

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I agree with you Boom. It is arrogance that you see from our leaders in their "profession of faith". I just hate to label everyone across the board as arrogant when it comes to their standing up for their faith.

As for Kerry's being Catholic and supporting abortion, I will say this. I personally don't support abortion---BUT I do support a woman's right to choose to do so :wink: . I don't support PBA (partial birth abortion) except in the case that the mother's health is at risk. Kerry supports PBA no matter what. Now, I don't know a lot about the Catholic faith but I will say this. Sanctity of life is highly regarded in every religion. God gave life and should be the one to decide when to take it away. This is the view of the majority. I feel the same way. My problem is, I don't think it is my responsibility to control what someone does with their body. They have to make the choice and live with their choice and meet their maker having made that choice.

The only reason Kerry is being dogged by the whole being Catholic and supporting abortion is because Republicans are solidly anti-abortion and again with this whole "spiritual revival" taking place currently they are going to do all they can to smear his values. He's a baby killer plain and simple to so many who can't see past the fact that they cannot control what someone else does. I know I'm getting into a lot here that doesn't address your thread subject but ----oh well.

I hope I spelled everything correctly because I'm not checking it.

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PKB wrote:

I like what Ron Reagan said of his father at the graveside services. He spoke of how his father was a very spiritual man but he was not one to wear it on his sleeve. He kind of took a jab at the current President. Sometimes I feel like the current administration is on a mission to force their morals and their beliefs upon the American public. What do you think?

there's a saying where i grew up. "christian from the lips out". if you believe what has often been wriiten about jesus, he not only talked it, he walked it". many don't. they misuse it to promote an agenda.

as do an awful lot of self proclaimed uber-patriots. one of whom that claimed to be defending america's values ( i.e. christian ideology) called me "a san francisco "turn the other cheek" liberal " last year during the run up to iraq.

when i mentioned that as i recalled it was jesus who told us to "turn the other cheek", she started yelling and cursing at me.

so along withmy frequent closer, "and people wonder why i don't vote for republican presidents anymore", i added "and people wonder why i don't practice christianity anymore".

your instincts are correct. the current version of the republican party is controlled by people on a search and destroy mission against anyone that doesn't conform to their squinty view of things. which is why it is vital that we don't allow their further abuse and un-american alteration of the constitution.

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How do Christians of the Bushnic variety correlate a pro-life conviction with a pro-gun, pro-death penalty stance?

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Oh my gosh, fishin! Thank you for tracking down that article. It was indeed enlightening. It has inspired me to seek out some other information on Quakerism and its impact on Nixon's life. (Lately I have stumbled on many books dealing with Mormanism and how it has shaped a variety of people. I'm hoping the Quakers are as easily found.)

I was particularly struck by the comment that they decided to let him define pacifism any way he chose.

But one does wonder what kind of stress it put Nixon under to know that 200 congregations were calling for his ousting because of Vietnam. This couldn't have been easy for him - he had obviously thought about his faith a lot and it was an important part of making him who he was.

Fascinating.

I'm going to read it again.

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mesquite wrote:

How do Christians of the Bushnic variety correlate a pro-life conviction with a pro-gun, pro-death penalty stance?

they can't. they can talk, but they can't square their contradictions.

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

they can't. they can talk, but they can't square their contradictions.

Seems to me to be a lot easier to square than being anti-death penalty and pro-choice is.

Someone who is on death row has been found guilty of committing a crime by their peers. What crime has any fetus committed?

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Digressions are welcome, PKB, as they offer food for thought.

I don't by any means think that all religious people are arrogant - just the people who believe it applies to everyone but themselves even as they preach it.

Abortion is certainly a complicated topic and I fear that people think pro-choice means that you're only willing to support a person having an abortion. I am currently raising a little boy whose very young mother was a neighbor of mine. Her family kicked her out when she became preganant and she turned to me for help. I promised to help her no matter what her decision. I've lived up to that promise. (This is a very short version of a very long story but I hope you get my drift.)

Perhaps my personal experience colors my views (okay, I'm sure it does) but people who do not want to see women have abortions need to step up to help with these children. Put up or shut up, I say.

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boomerang wrote:

Oh my gosh, fishin! Thank you for tracking down that article. It was indeed enlightening. It has inspired me to seek out some other information on Quakerism and its impact on Nixon's life. (Lately I have stumbled on many books dealing with Mormanism and how it has shaped a variety of people. I'm hoping the Quakers are as easily found.)

I was particularly struck by the comment that they decided to let him define pacifism any way he chose.

A few things really struck me when I read it.

When he headed of to college he wrote:

"Before he had arrived on the campus, Nixon wrote, his parents, who were "`fundamental Quakers'" had "ground into me...all the fundamental ideas in their strictest interpretation. The infallibility of the Bible, the miracles, even the whale story, all these I accepted as facts when I entered college four years ago." Nor could he "forget the admonition not to be misled by college professors who might be a little too liberal in their views!"

and then, 4 years later, as a senior:

""My beliefs are shattered....My religious thinking has been revolutionized...." Vanished, he noted, was biblical literalism, even faith in the physical resurrection of Jesus."

I was also unaware of the KKK's influence on the Quaker church and his contacts with Robert Schuler.

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fishin' wrote:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:
they can't. they can talk, but they can't square their contradictions.

Seems to me to be a lot easier to square than being anti-death penalty and pro-choice is.

Someone who is on death row has been found guilty of committing a crime by their peers. What crime has any fetus committed?

not a problem for me. i'm pro-choice and pro-death penalty.

you work up a whole plan to murder someone, you die.

you abduct, rape and kill a little child, making their last moments of life a collage of pain and terror, you die.

you bomb and an "abortion clinic" and kill people, you die.

the fetus issue isn't a problem for me either. buddhist teachings include karma. everything that happens in our lives is related to karma whether it's your's, mine, ours, or the old lady 2 streets over.

but it is a problem for me when a woman is forced to have an unwanted child by someone else's religion. unwanted is not the way to grow up. strangely enough, a lot of people on death row were born unwanted and raised with evrything from removed indifference to outright cruelty. i'm sure there's some kind of connection there.

it's also a problem for me when a lot of white people run around screaming "adoption, not abortion" when so few of them have interest in adopting any child darker than a peanut.

but that's just me

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Hi Don'tTreadOnMe (can I call you D-TOM?) and Mesquite. Thank you for joining the conversation.

I like that phrase "a Christian from the lips out". It does describe a certain variety of Christian.

I agree that the current administration is spooky with all its God talk and its narrow view of the American populace.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mesquite, but I think that where fishin errs on this issue is determining whether life is sacred or not.

If life is sacred, does the commission of a crime make you less sacred? Are there levels of sacredness?

I too have a hard time reconcilling anti-abortion and pro death penalty positions.

As to guns, people do have a constitutional right to keep guns so.... you know.... I have to say okay to guns. Not that I'd have one in my house.

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sorry for the extra post..

i forgot to say that i also believe that the right to choose comes with a great amount of responsibility. a sexually active woman (and her partner) should practice contraceptive measures and be aware enough of her body to realize early on that she is indeed pregnant and make her choice quickly. as in not waiting 4 +months.

but again, i'm male and i have no right to enforce my beliefs on a woman's issue.

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boomerang wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, Mesquite, but I think that where fishin errs on this issue is determining whether life is sacred or not.

That could be complicated by my lack of a belief that anything is sacred. Wink

Quote:

If life is sacred, does the commission of a crime make you less sacred? Are there levels of sacredness?

Sacred has nothing to do with it for me. If it "takes a village" and care of a pregnant woman is a responsibility of society (as many have argued and fought to have pre-natal care provided for by the government would indicate) then society has an interest in the well being of the fetus. A fetus has committed no affront to society. A convicted criminal (presumably) has.

(and I am pro-choice btw!)

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These are the kind of conversations where I really wish we could all just sit down togethter with a beer.....

There were several interesting passages in that article and you really hit on two of them, fishin.
I find a new respect for Nixon in knowing that he examined his beliefs so intently.

D-TOM, you're right - unwanted is no way to grow up.

Speaking as someone who had a really odd introduction to motherhood (after remining decidedly and intentionally childless for 40 something years) I can attest to needing a villiage. My village consists of family, neighborhood mothers I never noticed before and sometimes upon the kindness of villiage strangers.

I don't expect the government to be my villiage or anyone elses. Caring for the people we love and helping them should be the most basic of our instincts. Sadly, tragically, that is not always the case.

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fishin' wrote:

Sacred has nothing to do with it for me. If it "takes a village" and care of a pregnant woman is a responsibility of society (as many have argued and fought to have pre-natal care provided for by the government would indicate) then society has an interest in the well being of the fetus. A fetus has committed no affront to society. A convicted criminal (presumably) has.

(and I am pro-choice btw!)

Your position then is more on revenge /punishment than religion. My original question had to do with how Bushnic variety Christians squared the two with their beliefs. The teachings of Jesus had a lot to do with non violence and forgiveness, and little to do with revenge. My view of the Bushnic Christians is that they dip back into the old testament whenever it suits them.

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Your line about "revenge/punishment" made me click on something that has always bothered me about the death penalty, Mesquite.

Most murders, take OJ for an example, aren't just out on killing rampages. What they do is terrible but they can probably be rehabilitated pretty easily with some time for penetence and some anger management classes.

We do find that child molesters and rapist are pretty hard to rehabilitate but they don't get the death penalty - the get paroled.

What gives?

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