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A Healthy Economy

 
 
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 01:53 pm
Edit: Moderator: moved from Australia to Politics

Here's the way to generate (inside the U. S. economy) "heaps & gobs" of money that will be looking for a place to spent be invested.

America is currently plagued by the problem of joblessness, and in spite of the best efforts of those in charge of remedying it, little, if any, progress is being made. Other countries such as China, Japan, Korea, and others seem not to have this problem to the great extent that the U. S. A. does. America's retail shelves are stacked with cheaper foreign goods that have driven American manufactured goods out of the market. Americans no longer provide many services in the U. S. A. because they have been outsourced to foreign countries such as India because labor costs are much cheaper there.

Methods of taxation in other countries also contribute to the American unemployment problem. Most Americans do not realize the Europeans, Australians, and Canadians (with their GST----Goods and Sales tax), and countless others with a VAT (Value Added Tax) have had a discriminatory tax on American goods and services for decades! This discriminatory tax is 15 to 25% in Europe.

It works like this: every business has many costs, one of which is taxes (payroll taxes, profits taxes, etc.). In the U. S. A., these costs, like all other costs, are included in the prices of our products, but we don't itemize (clearly showing) the specific increment that is taxes. When we ship that product to Europe, etc., they add the VAT to the already tax-laden American product.

Companies in the VAT countries, like American companies, have to pay taxes, but they keep track of the taxes as the product proceeds along the production process. They call the incremental taxes VAT. When the product is put on the retail shelf in Europe, etc., it includes the VAT, and the VAT is revealed to the customer.

Now it gets interesting: when a tax-laden American product (about 22% on average) is put on the shelf next to the EU product, in Europe, the VAT is added to the American product. Now the American product is 20+% more expensive than the comparable EU product! Guess which one sells?

Conversely, when the EU product is exported, they remove the VAT! When that EU product is exported to the US, it sits on the retail shelf in the US with no taxes included right next to the American product with all the taxes included! So, once again, the American product is 20+% more expensive than the comparable EU product, and on our own shores! Guess which one sells?

We have put up with this nonsense for decades, while we debate tariffs on foreign steel and other like products produced domestically in the U. S. A. that must be protected from foreign competition if our domestic industry is to survive. Tariffs and other protectionism measures have not proven to be a satisfactory solution in protecting our domestic job market. The Smoot-Hawley tariff of 1930 was enacted to protect the American farmer from competition from much cheaper imported farm products. It represents the high-water mark of U.S. protectionism in the twentieth century, and it precipitated negative results (retaliation by other countries).

There is a plan all ready to go that, if enacted into law now, will produce the kind of super-rapid economic growth and new job-creation that is sorely needed, plus generate many additional good results for our nation! It is H.R. 25, the Fair Tax Act of 2003. This bill has bi-partisan sponsorship, widespread support among the hard-working taxpayers/voters, and fast growing support within the House of Representatives (over 55 co-sponsors) and Senate.
The Fair Tax will produce these highly desirable results:
· Our nation will enter a period of many years of sustained economic growth with new job-creation unequalled by anything in our past history.
· The Fair Tax plan will bring back a measure of fairness and freedom to America that has been sorely trampled-upon by the Income Tax System (and IRS) for many, many years.
· Receipts from the Fair Tax will be more than sufficient to fund the Social Security System and Medicare, plus enable the government to meet its needs and steadily pay-down the national debt.

The Fair Tax draws on a much larger tax base (our GNP, gross national product each year, when it is sold) than does the income tax; virtually no one will be able to evade paying at the "check-out" register. This will lighten the load for all of us. Under the Fair Tax the "sticker price" of all that you buy will fall 20-30%. So, even with the 23% Fair Tax added on, the cost of living would be no more than it is now, more likely it would be less.

The Fair Tax will:

· Replace the current complex and unfair federal tax system with a simple sales tax.

· Eliminate personal and corporate income taxes and Social Security, Medicare, gift and estate taxes.

· Save taxpayers $250-$600 billion now being wasted in complying with the current tax code.

· Lower "sticker" prices 20-30% by removing the cost of business compliance with the current tax code.

· Make American products more competitive with foreign products. Thus, hurling American manufacturing levels to dizzying heights not seen within recent memory.

· Provide a more stable revenue source and raise the same amount of money for the federal government with the imposition of a 23% sales tax with no loopholes.

· Dramatically lower tax rates for lower and middle-income Americans by pre-bate payments to households to offset the sales tax on necessities.

· Protect and ensure the funding of Social Security and Medicare.

· Repeal the 16th Amendment and eliminate the Internal Revenue Service as we know it. Taxes on income will no longer be constitutional.

· Bring capital investment flooding onto American shores. Business, no longer being taxed, will enjoy America as the most "business-friendly" nation on earth.

Whole-heartedly support House Resolution #25---the Fair Tax reform proposal as a curative solution to relieve the American people of the tyranny of our present tax system (income tax IRS) and put Americans back to work. That would be a great legacy to leave the American people.

The current 7-million-word tax code requires 1,168 pages (2 volumes) to publish, and an additional 6,439 pages of Federal Tax regulations that apply to income taxes. The IRS has created 480 tax forms with an additional 280 to explain how to fill out the 480. More Americans work in tax compliance occupations (CPAs, tax attorneys, etc.) than serve in the entire U.S. Armed Forces. The IRS is twice as big as the CIA and five times the size of the FBI. The compliance costs dwarf the amount of the tax collected. In addition to that, the IRS spends a yearly $10 billion budget. The total national cost of compliance (not counting the taxes paid) is $250 billion yearly. That's $850 per capita of U.S. population.

The Fair Tax reform proposal, which may be fully understood at the website www.fairtax.org, is the best alternative to replace the IRS. It is a simple (retail only) national sales tax. It is not a VAT (value added tax---applied at every level of the production process). Business-to-business transactions, not being retail, are not taxed. Nothing is deducted from the employee's paycheck. He has to spend it on new goods only, not used goods, for it to be taxed. Thus, one is in charge of one's own "tax destiny."

The individual person is allowed to spend the first $8,860 of his yearly income tax-free (he will get monthly reimbursement refund checks for taxes paid on that amount), $17,720 (for a couple), $20,800 (household of 3), $23,880 (h.h. of 4), $26,960 (h.h. of 5), $30,040 (h.h. of 6), $33,120 (h.h. of 7), $36, 200 (h.h. of 8).

Under this system, "sticker" prices would fall 20-30%, thus, giving our exports a much better competitive edge when sold abroad. This would "kick" the economy into high gear. Businesses (no longer having to send the IRS any money at all) would simply pass the savings on to the consumer, their shareholders, and their employees as higher wages. Forty-five of the fifty states use a sales tax to generate revenue because they know that it is the fairest, simplest, easiest, most cost-effective, most problem-free method of taxation. The state taxing authority in each state would assume the duty of collecting the national sales tax for the U. S. government. Only the retailers file a tax return stating the amount of their sales for the year. For everyone else, April 15 is just another spring day.

Each taxpayer gets a monthly refund check in the amount taxed on his spending up to the poverty line. So, in effect, he is only taxed on his spending above the poverty line. In no case will anyone sacrifice more than 23% of his total income to the sales tax, even if he spends all his income on retail purchases.

Unspent income remains tax-free and available for investment or education expenses. Compliance cost of administering the Fair Tax is only $8 billion yearly. That is a big savings compared to the $250 billion we now pay. The IRS, with all the taxpayer support services that it has made necessary, is intolerably burdensome and expensive.

At the Fair Tax website, don't stop with the first frame. Click on each of the major headings for more complete information. It will take awhile to do all this, but it is well worth it. You will learn everything you've always wanted to know about the economy and taxation, but were afraid to ask!

See also:
http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/materials/comparison.html
and http://www.geocities.com/cmcofer/fca3.html.
Then go to www.congress.org and tell your congressmen that you
want the Fair Tax Act, HR 25, passed into law ASAP!
America, producing an endless supply of high quality, competitively priced goods and services, will have a behemoth-size trade surplus. An ever-expanding economy will shift the balance of payments in favor of the U. S. A. America will be a lender to many, a debtor to none. There will be jobs and income for all who will work.

"There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come." ---Victor Hugo.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 3,295 • Replies: 56
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 03:33 pm
Re: A Healthy Economy
chugalugalug wrote:
America is currently plagued by the problem of joblessness, and in spite of the best efforts of those in charge of remedying it, little, if any, progress is being made. Other countries such as China, Japan, Korea, and others seem not to have this problem to the great extent that the U. S. A. does. America's retail shelves are stacked with cheaper foreign goods that have driven American manufactured goods out of the market. Americans no longer provide many services in the U. S. A. because they have been outsourced to foreign countries such as India because labor costs are much cheaper there.


Start with a faulty premise and you'll end up with a faulty solution. The US's unemployement rate is hardly "plagued". Japan's unemployment rate for August was at 4.9%. South Korea's was at 3.6%. The US came in at 5.6% in July (latest data I could find). Compare those to Germany (10.5%), France (8.9%), the UK (4.8%), Canada (7.2%), etc.. and the US's rate doesn't look all that bad. Certianly not bad enough to be used as justification for an overhaul of the entire tax system.
0 Replies
 
chugalugalug
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 05:03 pm
If joblessness isn't a cause for concern, what about the other issues involved??? There is a lot more to be gained than just jobs.

*The flight of business & capital to off-shore locations.

*The trade deficit that is bleeding America dry.

*The OUTRAGEOUS!! cost of compliance with the present tax code-----$250-$600 BILLION yearly, depending on which "expert" you ask.

*The present tax code is much more evadeable than a sales tax would be.

*The Fair Tax would increase purchasing power at least 10% for most all Americans (because of a drop in "sticker" prices).
0 Replies
 
chugalugalug
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 05:35 pm
This Fair Tax proposal, currently in both houses of Congress, solves the fatal flaws that a sales tax usually has. The FairTax is a national RETAIL ONLY sales tax on purchases for personal consumption of new goods and services which would totally and permanently replace all federal taxes on income plus the gift and estate taxes and withholding for Social Security and Medicare, and it includes a rebate to every American household of the
FairTax it would pay on purchases of its necessities.

Social Security would be funded by the FairTax, which would be paid not by just honest working citizens, but also by those living off accumulated
wealth, foreign visitors to the U.S., illegal aliens, dope peddlers, pornographers, and other criminals who hide their income but do their spending alongside the rest of us.

An effect of the FairTax is that, by eliminating all these taxes, it eliminates an average 22% of the price of every American-made good or service. That's how big the burden of our federal tax system is. When entire supply chains are freed of those costs, competition will force down the selling prices commensurately. That's what's happened throughout history as costs of providing goods and services have been reduced by other factors (such as productivity improvements, lower ingredients costs, etc.). So, in this way, the FairTax will eliminate today's hidden tax system cost from the prices everyone (poor and rich) pays for their goods and services.

Think of what this will do to our balance of trade when U.S.-made goods become available at 22% lower prices.

Too, under the FairTax, the Social Security Administration will send on the first of every month to every American head of household (requires legal U.S. residence and S.S. number) a payment equal to the FairTax rate (which will be calculated to be revenue-neutral vis-à-vis the taxes it replaces) x the household's annual poverty level (calculated by Health and Human Services to equal the household's spending for its necessities) divided by 12 to make it a monthly amount. This will zero the household's tax bill for spending at the poverty level. Those spending below the poverty level will, thereby, be subsidized by the federal government. Those spending at the poverty level will pay a net zero federal tax. And those who spend at greater than the poverty level will pay federal tax at a rate that increases exactly commensurately with the extent to which their spending exceeds the poverty level.

Americans would begin to be taxed for taking from society instead of for putting into it. Those who would spend the most would be taxed the most.
Administration cost would drop by greater than 90%. Evasion would require collusion between buyer and seller instead of an individual taking a chance on a self-report. There would be no exclusions, exceptions, special rates or other loopholes, so all would see that they are treated exactly like everyone else. 45,000 pages of tax code would become 50 pages, so everyone
would actually understand the system. The sham of businesses paying taxes rather than individuals paying them would be eliminated.

Education, treated by the FairTax as an investment in oneself instead of a personal consumption, would not be taxed, and education's cost would drop nearly 50%.

Home buying would soar as new home prices would fall, and interest rates would fall 25% to the rate of today's tax-free loan rates. Existing homes
would retain their value as their value would then include freedom from the FairTax at resale since the FairTax would not be levied on used items.
Homebuyers would have their gross, not net, paychecks to spend. Plus they would be receiving the monthly rebate. Not only would mortgage interest be tax-free; payment of the principle would be tax-free, too. And every home
buyer would get these benefits, not just the 28% who itemize today.

In fact, every legal American resident with a S.S. number would get every FairTax benefit -- automatically -- without paying a tax avoidance advisor, joining a special interest group, or hiring a lawyer or accountant. And no individual would have to keep a single record or submit a single report. And for the first time in our lives, each of us would actually be able to understand our share of the cost of the federal government. Nothing would be hidden.

If Congress wanted to support obscure projects or groups, they'd have to write them a check and make it a budget line item so that we could all see
it. There would be no more "tax spending" -- granting a loophole in the income tax system far removed from our view and attention. And if they ever wanted to increase tax rates, there would be only one rate to torque. And 300 million Americans would be watching.

Charity and retail sales would both increase since both are proven to be driven most effectively by (Are you ready for this?) people having more
money! Neither would be dependent upon income tax deductibility. Such deductibility is nothing more than a waiver of an income tax liability. And
under the FairTax, there is no income tax liability at all. All your dollars become before-tax dollars, not just those which have a tax loophole.


Under the FairTax, we'd say bye-bye to social engineering and economic distortion via a deceitful, obscure tax system. Congress' intentions and
effects would be seen in the harsh light of day, not masked by an income tax code that has changed on average once every 22 hours for the past two
decades.

The cost of complying with today's income tax system is huge. The record-keeping, planning, filing, etc. for businesses and individuals consumes each year about 6 billion person-hours. That's about 1/4 trillion dollars of cost and the equivalent of 3 million good Americans working full time to do nothing useful for our society. Think of what good could be accomplished by turning that effort toward things that we actually need and want.

Wow, I'm liking this FairTax idea more than ever! I hope you are, too. Please see all the details at www.fairtax.org Then go to: www.congress.org and tell your congressmen that you want HR 25, the Fair Tax Act, passed into law ASAP!!!! The Fair Tax solves all the problems of a "conventional" sales tax.
0 Replies
 
chugalugalug
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 05:42 pm
Good News For John Linder

Late-breaking rumors have it that in Thursday night's nomination acceptance speech by President Bush, Bush will lay down one of his primary goals to push forward the debate of, and passage of, the national sales tax, also known as the Fair Tax legislation. The Fair Tax legislation was introduced in this past House session as HR 25 and has been carried and promoted by Representative John Linder (GA-7) and a growing number (55 co-sponsors at present) of other legislators, both in the House and the Senate.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Sep, 2004 06:43 pm
chugalugalug wrote:
If joblessness isn't a cause for concern, what about the other issues involved???


The "other issues" are equeally riddled with factual errors.

Your comments about the European VAT taxes neglect to mention that the retail VAT is only one of several taxes paid on products. They also pay production taxes on items they sell which continue to be paid regardless of where the end item is sold. It also ignores that most US states have a sales tax that we pay on imports just like they pay VAT on items we export to them. And none of that even touches on import taxes and customs fees they pay on imports either. All of that blows your 20% number right out of the water.

The creation of a "retail only" tax system would spur an underground economy where people just avoided the retail marketplace as much as possible.

The "Fair Tax" proposals have been debunked and died a quiet death every year for the last several and will continue to do so for decades to come.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 07:20 am
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=568&ncid=749&e=1&u=/nm/bs_nm/markets_stocks_dc
0 Replies
 
chugalugalug
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 02:58 pm
Retail industry goes underground???
fishin',

You say,"The creation of a "retail only" tax system would spur an underground economy where people just avoided the retail marketplace as much as possible. "

Pray tell, how are the shopping malls and all the businesses they contain going to go "underground".

There isn't room to "dig a hole big enough" to hide all the Wal-Marts, Targets, grocery store chains, etc., etc. All these, collectively, do well over 95% of the retailing that is done in the USA.

You're "underground retail" idea won't fly in the world of REALITY!
0 Replies
 
chugalugalug
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 03:06 pm
Die a QUIET DEATH???
fishin',

You say, "The "Fair Tax" proposals have been debunked and died a quiet death every year for the last several and will continue to do so for decades to come. "

You are not aware that President Bush intends to make this a priority item on his agenda for his next term in office.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 03:09 pm
Re: Retail industry goes underground???
chugalugalug wrote:
Pray tell, how are the shopping malls and all the businesses they contain going to go "underground".

There isn't room to "dig a hole big enough" to hide all the Wal-Marts, Targets, grocery store chains, etc., etc. All these, collectively, do well over 95% of the retailing that is done in the USA.

You're "underground retail" idea won't fly in the world of REALITY!


Maybe if you stuck to what I actually wrote instead of fabricating things that were never said you'd understand it better, Wink

Where did I say anything about Walmart, Target or any other BUSINESS going underground? In case you didn't take any history classes back in school, the world used to operate largely on a barter system. That only died out as currency became more transportable and it became feasible to actually travel over long distance to buy goods for resale.

Creating a system where the only tax source is on retail sales makes the barter system feasible once again and the more it's used the less tax revenue there is from the retail sales that remain forcing the taxes on those sales to spiral higher and higher.
0 Replies
 
chugalugalug
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 04:22 pm
Barter system???
fishin',

Back in the days of "mule trains" and "camel caravans" the barter system made a lot of sense.

BUT, we are no longer there.

In this age of credit cards & electronic transfer of funds, how are you going to start TRANSPORTING huge amounts of goods back-and-forth in a barter system??? Where would all the extra fuel and vehicles come from??? We are already stretching these resources to the breaking point even now. What you are suggesting is not cost effective, therefore it can't fly.

What do you PERSONALLY possess right now that you think you could use for barter in doing your own everyday retail shopping??? Do you have a truck to haul it in???

Do you see what I mean now???

In our 21st Century world a barter system would be too IMPRACTICAL and UN-HANDY to use.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Sep, 2004 06:26 pm
Barter systems such as the now defunct TradeAmerica did not get away with not paying taxes. I was a member of both of the most popular barter organizations in the 80's which started out covertly trading goods and services without taxation. That lasted for less than a year when California and other states immediately got wise and began mandating that they collect and pay sales tax based on the value of the trade. As this "underground" system would only now work on the Internet rather than the old complicated barter coupon and other paper methods, it wouldn't take long before they too were compelled to collect and pay sales taxes. Not that there aren't a myriad of drawbacks to both a fair tax and a flat tax. The very wealthy like Steve Forbes would love a flat tax 'cause it would drastically lower their taxes.
0 Replies
 
chugalugalug
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 11:46 am
Steve Forbes
Light wizard,

You say, " The very wealthy like Steve Forbes would love a flat tax 'cause it would drastically lower their taxes. "

True. And they (the tycoons) would take all that extra money and "sink it" into capital investment, thus creating more jobs than ever.

The tycoons are the geese that lay the wonderful golden eggs that we all enjoy so much.

Bill Gates is supporting 30,000 people and their families (through wages and benefits). Those 30,000 spend their money and it flutters down through the economy like confetti at a ticker-tape parade.

Isn't Bill Gates GREAT!!!! And EVERYONE!!!! loves a parade like that.

The wealth of the tycoons is AMERICA'S WEALTH!!!! and it makes our country strong.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 11:58 am
Quote:
True. And they (the tycoons) would take all that extra money and "sink it" into capital investment, thus creating more jobs than ever.


Well, the thing is, there's no real evidence that this is true.

Let's say you give a millionaire a 30k tax break. That's a ton of money to a poor person, almost a year's salary in a lot of cases.

But to a millionaire that's chump change. Is he going to go right out and spend it? Not neccessarily. We just hope that they will.

Big ticket purchases, way down. Stock investment is also not up significantly since the Bush tax break. There is every evidence that the rich are KEEPING that money... which could very easily lead to a Japan-like economy where far too much money is tied up on the top, and sitting stagnant...

That same 30k tax break which meant nothing to the millionaire would make a big difference if it was split between 30 low or middle-income families. I know my parents would have jumped for joy if an extra 1k rolled in while I was growing up. There's no reason why the money cannot be invested by the middle class, as well; Bush talks about an 'ownership society,' well, this would be a great way to help every American buy some stock.

America's wealth isn't monetary. Monetary wealth is a joke compared to the wealth of our assets and our people. People are the true wealth of a country.


Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 12:01 pm
Good luck on Steve Forbes and the rest if expected they will sink the extra money into "capitol investments" and creating jobs. You can bend over and have them open up their flies and trickle over you. I'm not that foolish.
0 Replies
 
chugalugalug
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 12:31 pm
Mason jars & matress stuffing
Cycloptichorn & Lightwizard,

The money of tycoons isn't kept in mason jars and/or stuffed in matresses. That isn't their style. All money whether in bank deposits, stocks, bonds, annuities, mutual funds, etc., etc. is destined to finally find its way into capital investment.

Even though it is your money, the money institution holding it for you will channel it into interest bearing loans of some kind. It will end-up as capital investment in someone else's hands.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 01:13 pm
My, we are being simplistic today. Just how do you know the money isn't kept in mason jars and stuffed in mattresses? Laughing I hate to tell you how many times I've been paid by my wealthy clientele out of a floor safe where they keep their mad money (likely, never taxed). Trying to simplify the flow of money as you believe you can do in some short, terse posts is revealing. You haven't studied economics. I'll have my business and finance manager handle my money, thank you. He was an executive at Hughes Aircraft, now retired.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 01:21 pm
I agree with LW. The flow of money is complex.

If we are talking about re-investment, then it becomes a game of percentages. What percentage will re-invest the money they are given?

What percentage will spend that money outside our economy?

What percentage will give the money to charity?

What percentage will convert it to gold, and stick it in their wall safe? Hell, I'm poor, and I own some gold; it's a pretty solid investment, but not exactly one which revitalizes the market.

How many will invest in American companies? What percentage of these companies will actually create new jobs with the investment, instead of realizing greater profits by continuing to offshore employees like they do now?


The answer to all these questions is, noone really knows. So to claim that giving the money to the rich is going to be like some sort of cure-all for our society betrays your lack of understanding of the economic system.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 02:10 pm
Absolutely correct again, Cycloptichorn (sorry for the previous abbreviation -- too lazy to search back to the previous page!)
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 02:13 pm
Economists = Alchemists

They all believe they know how to make gold out of lead or a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The polarity of their beliefs is astonishing and they shovel out preditions like Criswell. Tax cuts can be a quick fix that works in a way that is difficult to track and probably only in a short term. There are other ills and one of the biggest is consumer confidence. This is not a science, it's an art and we have a bevy of untalented polticians running things.
0 Replies
 
 

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