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Russia,Chechnya and other issues in the area

 
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 03:03 pm
Confused What I've heard, contrary to the official Russian statement, is that civilians say the Russian army has made some grave mistakes ...
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 03:22 pm
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
civilians say the Russian army has made some grave mistakes ...


That happens, especially in Russia. But all our sources based someway to the Russian agencies etc. , we have not really a other choice...
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 03:27 pm
Just wait for a few more days, weeks, maybe months I guess ...
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 03:31 pm
I agree.
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Truehelgi
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 06:10 pm
There were no mistakes made by Russian army. They didn't await the terrorists will explose the bombs so they weren't ready at the moment. And remember that many of sitizens and the relatives were armed and started to shoot at the moment of storm trying to help. One of the officials said later that it really prevents for the special forces to do their work. The situation was really awful.
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Chuckster
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 08:56 pm
Love the way all of you have avoided identifying the children murderer's as Islam-facist Terrorists continuing their work of World Terrorism. No fifth column here.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Sep, 2004 09:55 pm
Don't know f*ck-all about the history of the Caucasus, do ya Chuck?
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 01:26 am
The analyse from two reowned magazines:

Hostage Bloodbath Highlights Putin's Chechen Failure

Quote:
The carnage that ended the hostage crisis at a school in southern Russia is a grim reminder of the abject failure of President Vladimir Putin's own "war on terror." At least 150 people are reported to have been killed Friday after Russian troops stormed a school where some 300 had been held captive by a group of masked Chechen gunmen demanding that the authorities free their jailed comrades. Some hostages remain in captivity as gunmen fight on amid the confusion surrounding what was reportedly an unplanned storming of the school that began after a firefight erupted at the site.

And the latest bloodshed has come scarcely a week after twin suicide-bombings brought down two Russian airliners and a third wrought havoc outside a Moscow subway station, leaving more than 100 dead. The latest wave of attacks appeared calculated to mock President Putin's claim that he had defeated the Chechen separatist insurgency: It coincided with last Sunday's election, under conditions widely criticized by observers, of his hand-picked President for Chechnya, Alu Alkhanov. And, of course, the reason for the election was that Moscow's previous pick to lead the rebellious region, Ahmad Khadyrov, had been killed by a suicide bomber three months ago.

Russian observers see the latest wave of attacks, which have killed more than 100 Russians in a week, as signs of a qualitative shift in the conflict. Putin's crackdown has not only failed to eliminate the nationalist rebellion in the independence-minded largely Muslim territory; it has altered the nature of that rebellion, hardening its fighters, narrowing the differences between secular nationalists and radical Islamists, and putting the Islamists in the driving seat. Having failed to drive Russian forces out of Chechnya via guerrilla warfare, the rebels have resorted to a wider offensive in neighboring territories such as Dagestan, Ingushetia and Ossetia, and have also placed a far greater emphasis on spectacular long-distance terror operations in Russia proper.

Observers believe the rampant corruption in the poorly-paid Russian armed forces has contributed to the mobility of the Chechen fighters ?- wads of cash (raised through criminal extortion or donations from jihadi-sympathizers abroad) has often proven a more effective weapon than a rocket launcher in the hands of separatist fighters looking to break through Russian lines. The heavy-handed tactics of Moscow's forces has alienated even many of those Chechens who had initially welcomed their arrival as deliverance from the violent chaos of criminality and warlordism that had prevailed under the de facto independence won from Moscow in 1996. And the state of the Chechen economy after five years of war also works to the advantage of the men of war ?- with unemployment at around 80 percent, the job prospects for many fighting-age Chechen men are restricted to joining the pro-Moscow militias or doing contract work for the rebels. (Bombing an oil pipeline, for example is believed to earn a Chechen fighter in the region of $400, a princely sum in a pauperized population.) And for many, particularly the "black widows" who have seen fathers, brothers and husbands killed by the Russian security forces, revenge is as powerful a motive as money ?- the suicide bombers of both airliners and the subway station are believed to be Chechen women who had lost loved ones in the war. But the cycle of violence spirals downwards, as each new terror outrage brings a new backlash by the authorities.

President Putin's stock response has been to blame the offensive on "international terrorism," a phrase that supposedly invokes al-Qaeda and sidesteps any acknowledgement that Russia may, in part, be reaping the whirlwind of what Putin has sown in Chechnya during his almost five years at the helm. Even in its most explicitly jihadist form, Chechen terrorism is a homegrown affair, although factions of the Chechen separatist movement have received financial and political support from Qaeda-aligned elements abroad. The Russian crackdown, which began late in 1999 as Putin sent in troops to reverse the autonomy granted the region by former President Boris Yeltsin following a series of unsolved apartment bombings in Moscow ?- a brutal campaign that struck a popular chord and served as the would-be president's introduction to Russian voters ?- has certainly given Chechens plenty of reason to contemplate attacking Russians. Thousands of Chechens have been killed in the course of the crackdown, and scores of fighting-age men continue to simply disappear following visits to their homes by Russian forces.


complete analyse
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 01:28 am
A Bloody End
With scores of hostages dead, the Russian school siege raises disturbing questions?-and political problems for Putin


Quote:
Even as flames burst through the windows of Beslan's School No. 1 and rescue workers carried out corpse after corpse with missing limbs, Russian state television was putting a positive spin on things. "Practically the whole school is under the control of special forces," an NTV announcer repeated every 10 minutes this afternoon. "The vast majority of child hostages are alive." A few hundred yards away, volunteers loaded half-naked and bloodied kids, once dressed in their finest for the Sept. 1 start of school, into rickety private cars and ambulances for the drive to the hospital. "If the Russians hadn't started shooting, we all would have died there of hunger," said Alla Gadieva, 24.

So ended one of the most savage and puzzling acts of terror in recent memory. Last Wednesday morning, a band of some 20 fighters seized students, parents and teachers outside a North Ossetian school near Russia's breakaway republic of Chechnya. They demanded Russia withdraw its troops and declare an end to the decadelong war on its southern flank. After a three-day standoff, Russian forces took over the school, freeing several hundred dazed hostages who had had barely anything to eat or drink since the start of the ordeal. At least 150 were dead and hundreds more wounded, reported Russian authorities at the siege's end. Those figures, as well the overall estimate of the number of people held inside the building, could climb as more details emerge.

The severity of the attack made Russians temporarily forget the string of ordeals they had already suffered. Beginning Aug. 24, terrorists perpetrated five separate assaults over a period of eight days. First, a bomb went off at a Moscow bus stop injuring four people. A few hours later, suicide bombers brought down two passenger planes within three minutes, killing all 90 on board both craft. One week later, another suspected suicide bomber killed 10 and injured at least 37 outside a crowded Moscow subway station. "We've never had as many terror attacks as we have had under [President Vladimir] Putin," says Vladimir Rhyzhkov, a liberal member of the Duma, Russia's lower house of Parliament. "It's unprecedented." So far this year, more than 300 have died?-compared to 369 in 2002 and 2003 combined.

Aside from the human tragedy, the attacks threatened to destroy Putin's political credibility, as well. Over the last five years, the Russian president has made repeated proclamations of victory in Chechnya and hasn't budged from his hard-line stance on the issue. Even after last Tuesday's subway bombing, he insisted the terrorists were reacting to the "normalization" of the Chechen crisis. But the school siege seems to have brought Putin to a tipping point, prompting him, for the first time, to turn to the United Nations Security Council to join him in condemning the violence.

This last year, the first of his second term, has been especially rocky. Russians are already up in arms over his decision to convert benefits for veterans and the elderly into cash payments?-a piece of legislation that slipped through late last month. Even the initially popular prosecution of Yukos oil tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky is beginning to look like a sinister power grab. The string of attacks is sure to bring his popularity to an all-time low. "Fewer and fewer people blame the Chechens, and more and more understand it's the government that's at fault," says Stanislav Belkovsky, head of the Institute for National Strategy in Moscow.

One big question on everyone's mind was what, if anything, was the government doing to protect the population. "In the United States there has not been a single new terrorist act since September 11," says Rhyzhkov. "That tells you our security service is completely ineffective in their fight against terror." The security services, in turn, put the blame back on the government. "We earn the same money as regular policemen," a Russian counterterrorism official told NEWSWEEK, adding that he's forced to spend his own money on basic necessities like notebooks and portable computers. "Until we begin to adequately finance the fight against terrorism, nothing will change."


analyse here
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Chuckster
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 01:55 am
Set: A reported 10 of the dead Terrorists were carrying mid-eastern passports.These were part of the crowd that murdered innocent children Set! You need a History book for what exactly?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 02:10 am
So passports change history?

A short -and readable- 'timeline' here at BBC
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 02:14 am
Chechen Check List

AK47's check!
Plastic explosives check!
Arabic passports check!
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MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 02:39 am
well Walter, don't you know it's quite obvius that when you have mid-eastern passport you are Islamic Fascist.

As well as it's obvius that instead of being terrified by incident itself and murdering of hundreds of children, we should discuss Islam Fascism in this topic, and maybe help one Christian Fanatic/Lunatic (let me remind you: GOD SPEAKS TO HIM) to stay in power for four more years.

And after all, it's obvius that it's much much worse to capture kids inside school and then later shoot them, then to bomb them and kill dozens of them from air when they are on wedding ceremony.

(on serious side - this can hardly bring peace to parents of dead children, but those children-killers in Russia are /will be/ punished at least, unlike some other children-killers without mid-eastern passports)
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 03:20 am
Very well done, MOU . . .
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 05:32 am
Thanks, MOU, for reminding me.
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Chuckster
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 05:52 am
Yes MOU! Congratulations! Lets not confuse anyone with facts to wit:
"Interfax reports that 10 of the 20 hostage-murderers are from Arab states . Reuters reports that Basayev and Abu Omar al-Saif, al-Qaeda's top financier in Chechnya, bankrolled this operation."
Attacks like this are in store for us in America unless we track terrorists down where they live and kill them first.
What a thrill it is to associate with individuals who have one iota of kinship with those who do such terrible work.
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Thok
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 05:57 am
in the meantime the death toll rises to around 322.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 06:14 am
NYT reports:

"Hundreds Die as Siege at a Russian School Ends in Chaos
By C. J. CHIVERS and STEVEN LEE MYERS



ESLAN, Russia, Saturday, Sept. 4 - The siege of a school here in southern Russia ended Friday in panic, violence and death 52 hours after it began. At least 250 people - most of them students, teachers and parents - died, according to official reports and witnesses, after two large explosions set off pitched battles between heavily armed captors and Russian forces that continued for hours.

[The ITAR-Tass news agency on Saturday quoted Russian Deputy Prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky as saying 322 bodies, including those of 155 children, had been recovered from the school, according to the Associated Press.]

Ambulances, police cars and any other free vehicle rushed as many as 700 people to hospitals in frenzied convoys that careered through the streets of this small, leafy city in the republic of North Ossetia.

Early Saturday, 531 people remained hospitalized, including 283 children - 92 of whom were said to be in "very grave" condition, The Associated Press reported.

Scores of hostages survived, staggering from the school even as intense gunfire sputtered and grenades exploded around them. Many were barely dressed, their faces strained with fear and exhaustion, their bodies bloodied by shrapnel and gunshots. Many others never got out. Their bodies lay in the charred wreckage of Middle School No. 1's gymnasium, the roof of which had collapsed and burned, a police officer said. Many people here feared the toll would rise.

Gunfire and explosions erupted sporadically in and around the school deep into the night, as pockets of guerrillas continued to fight, including three hunkered inside a nearby building, reportedly holding an unknown number of hostages. Officials did not declare the crisis over until 11:30 p.m., more than 10 hours after the violence began........"

Full story here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/04/international/europe/04russia.html?th
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 06:37 am
Chuckster wrote:
What a thrill it is to associate with individuals who have one iota of kinship with those who do such terrible work.


This is gross slander, of the scumbag variety. You demonstrate once again why the witless are so easily manipulated by simple-minded propaganda. The Ingush and the Chechens will make bargains with the Devil himself to prosecute their war against the Russians. AQ will make deals with anyone to broaden, or even appear to broaden their base. The Chechens are not coming for us, although it would not distrub me to think that they made individual targets of frothing-at-the-mouth racist crusaders.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Sep, 2004 07:26 am
Now, I do not deny the fact that ten of these terrorists had Arab passwords. However, what I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that hostages have said a number of hostage takers spoke Ingush. So what, you might think?

Well, Northern Ossetia is home to the Ossetians, a Russian-Orthodox nation who speak a language similar to Iranian. The Ingush are a Muslim nation, who reside in Ingushetia, a region next to Ossetia. These two nations are - to say it in an easy way - not that fond of each other, going back to WW II.

After the Soviet Union collapsed, a new conflict saw light in this region, evolving into a Ossetian-Ingush conflict in the 90's (Prigorodnyi Region, 1994), in which hundreds of people were killed.

I do not deny that it is likely that Chechen rebels were the largest fragment of the group, that they have orientated this attack, and that fundamental Wahhabists had a word in this. However, I do doubt whether this barbaric masskilling is solely based on religious grounds. I agree with Setanta that the Chechens are not coming for us. As I have said before, a small - though growing - part of Chechens is influenced by the puritanical way of Islam - Wahhabism - brought by fundamentalist Muslims. However, although Chechens are Muslim, does this not mean that the majority of Chechens support these views, and that they are fighting a religious war. In the eyes of the majority, this is still a war of independence.

NOTE: both Chechnya and Ingushetia have NO tradition of MILITANT ISLAM.
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