timberlandko wrote:Just curious, here, Dookiestix, are you familiar with the circumstances of Ex-Senator Cleland's wartime injuries?
is this what all this comes down to now? Now when someone gets a medal for braver in Iraq is someone going to question it?
Cleland was not injured in combat. He did see combat and he did receive combat citations, however, the Purple Heart is not among his decorations, and the occasion of his loss of limbs involved neither combat nor citation. Having finished a non-combat construction assignment, he boarded a chopper for return to his base. Changing his mind at the last mmoment, deciding to stick around a bit at the construction site and have a few beers with his buddies, he leapt a few to the ground from the ascending chopper. Hitting the ground, he ducked-and-covered amid the swirling debris stirred up downblast of the chopper's rotors, then began to gt to his feet. Spotting an M26 Fragmentation Grenade on the ground before him, he assumed it had fallen from his own pack webbing, and reached to retrieve it. He never got to have those beers.
The grenade had not been from his own kit, but from the gear of a newbie who had been behind Cleland in the chopper. The newbie had improperly configured and stowed the grenade, in order to facillitate "John Wayne Style" one-handed deployment of the weapon, lessening the tension of the retaining pin and hanging the grenade from his gear by its finger ring. The grenade detatched from its pin, which remained hooked to the newbie's webbing. Pinless, the grenade naturally armed as it fell, and Cleland reached for it just as its triggered fuse reached the main charge.
Not to diminish Cleland for his achievements, particularly the extraordinary courage and determination required to overcome his injuries and go on to build a new life including elected public service, but Cleland sustained those life-altering wounds in a bone-headed accident while off duty at a constructiopn site four days after the last time he was in combat.
What's really cool is being able to wear a medal you didn't earn, never having to see war first hand, and then be able to send others to do the fighting.
http://www.awolbush.com/awards.asp
That's admirable!
revel wrote:
is this what all this comes down to now? Now when someone gets a medal for bravery in Iraq is someone going to question it?
from the goings on,so far, i'd have to say that only those who are of a non-republican affiliation need to worry about that.
especially if any of the guys coming back from iraq (notice i didn't say afghanistan. that's a whole different war) begin to voice anything but praise over the whole operation.
like i mentioned very early in my joining a2k, the sbvb has opened the door to question every citation that has ever been or will be given to veterans of any war.
and i find that really quite sad.
Nah...what's really cool is throwing away your medals and then having them miraculously reappear! Wait...he didn't throw away his medals? He lied????????
That's admirable!
Quote:147th Fighter Interceptor Group (FIG) History
On May 16, 1958 the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group (FIG), with its five new squadrons, was formed to support the 111 Fighter Interceptor Squadron. In August 1960 the unit was one of the first to transition to the F-102A all-weather fighter-interceptor and began a 24-hour runway alert commitment as part of the North American air defense network ...
... The 147th earned the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award in 1966 when it was proclaimed, "The most combat ready of all Air Guard units" ...
Winged Shield, Winged Sword: The History of the United States Air Force (1182 pp. 2 Vol., illustrations, photos, notes, suggested readings, index): Nalty, B. C. (ed); US Government Printing Office 1997
GPO Stock No. 008-070-00717-7 ISBN: 0-16-049009-X
Who ya gonna believe ... Buzzflash or the official history of the US Air Force?
JustWonders wrote:Nah...what's really cool is throwing away your medals and then having them miraculously reappear! Wait...he didn't throw away his medals? He lied????????
That's admirable!
When did they reappear?
Kerry was young and had just got back from a war that was terrible where crimes were committed. I imagine he got caught up in the anguish of it all like a lot of other people of the time did.
timberlandko wrote:Cleland was not injured in combat. He did see combat and he did receive combat citations, however, the Purple Heart is not among his decorations, and the occasion of his loss of limbs involved neither combat nor citation. Having finished a non-combat construction assignment, he boarded a chopper for return to his base. Changing his mind at the last mmoment, deciding to stick around a bit at the construction site and have a few beers with his buddies, he leapt a few to the ground from the ascending chopper. Hitting the ground, he ducked-and-covered amid the swirling debris stirred up downblast of the chopper's rotors, then began to gt to his feet. Spotting an M26 Fragmentation Grenade on the ground before him, he assumed it had fallen from his own pack webbing, and reached to retrieve it. He never got to have those beers.
The grenade had not been from his own kit, but from the gear of a newbie who had been behind Cleland in the chopper. The newbie had improperly configured and stowed the grenade, in order to facillitate "John Wayne Style" one-handed deployment of the weapon, lessening the tension of the retaining pin and hanging the grenade from his gear by its finger ring. The grenade detatched from its pin, which remained hooked to the newbie's webbing. Pinless, the grenade naturally armed as it fell, and Cleland reached for it just as its triggered fuse reached the main charge.
Not to diminish Cleland for his achievements, particularly the extraordinary courage and determination required to overcome his injuries and go on to build a new life including elected public service, but Cleland sustained those life-altering wounds in a bone-headed accident while off duty at a constructiopn site four days after the last time he was in combat.
I stand corrected then he didn't get a medal and his injuries were due to an accident rather than during combat.
The point still stands however that questioning Kerry's medals opens the door to questioning everyone who ever gets one or has had one or two (however many)in the past.
As for Bush and awal. There are blanks in the records as I am sure you are aware and that is the thing that is in question and remains in question. Since the national gaurd gave him a dishononorable discharge, you are right he is not awal. Nevertheless the differences between bush's blank or blacked out spots that is on record and just stories told by people are two compleltly different things. The awal charges didn't come out of thin air with no documents or anything to back them up.
First, questioning Kerry's medals most certainly in no way calls to question the awards and citations of those who IN FACT have earned same. What is challenged is the moral and ethical bankruptcy of frauds and liars who profess military decorations not in fact due them. To cheapen the honor of the deserving by falsely claiming fellowship with them is inexcuseable. The military takes citations, particularly combat citations, very, very, very seriously.
Second, The Air Force granted Bush the Younger an Honorable Discharge, and yes, indeed, the AWOL flap was created out of thin air, has been roundly debunked a number of times and by numerous means, and the pursuit of the baseless allegations serves only to discredit the proponents of the absurd premis.
Saturday, October 26, 2002
Cleland's campaign manager clarifies senator's Army service
This is in response to the letter to the editor (Sunday, Oct. 20) that inquired how Sen. Max Cleland was injured in Vietnam and whether or not he received any commendations in the war. Army General Order 4361, dated June 9, 1968, states that the Silver Star was awarded to U.S. Army Capt. Max Cleland "for gallantry in action while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force in Vietnam." In 1968, then Capt. Cleland was in action at the battle of Khe Sanh. Below is the language contained in his Silver Star Order: "Awarded: Silver Star; Date Action: 4 April 1968; Theater: Republic of Vietnam "Action: For gallantry in action while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an armed hostile force in the Republic of Vietnam. Captain Cleland distinguished himself by exceptionally valorous action on 4 April 1968, while serving as communications officer of the 2nd Battalion, 12th Calvary during an enemy attack near Khe Sanh, Republic of Vietnam. "When the battalion command post came under a heavy enemy rocket and mortar attack, Capt. Cleland, disregarding his own safety, exposed himself to the rocket barrage as he left his covered position to administer first aid to his wounded comrades. He then assisted in moving the injured personnel to covered positions. Continuing to expose himself, Capt. Cleland organized his men into a work party to repair the battalion communications equipment which had been damaged by enemy fire. His gallant action is in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service, and reflects great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army. "Authority: By direction of the President, under the provisions of the Act of Congress, approved 9 July 1968." The action cited occurred on April 4, 1968, four days before the grenade explosion that cost Sen. Cleland both legs and an arm. As has been widely reported in the Atlanta Constitution beginning in 1968, then-Capt. Cleland, an Army Signal Officer, volunteered for infantry service to relieve the stranded Marines and members of the Army's 1st Cavalry at the battle of Khe Sanh. While disembarking from a transport helicopter, Capt. Cleland reached for a grenade he believed had become dislodged from his web gear. Later it was discovered that the grenade belonged to a young soldier new to the theater. That soldier had improperly prepared the grenade pin for easy detonation and had dropped it while coming off the helicopter. The grenade exploded and severely injured Capt. Cleland. The Silver Star is the third-highest valor decoration of the United States. Sen. Cleland also was awarded a Soldier's Medal, Bronze Star, Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal with Device (1960), Vietnam Service Medal, National Defense Service Medal and Parachutist Badge. Thank you for your interest in Sen. Cleland and your interest in the campaign. Tommy Thompson Campaign manager, Atlanta
Copyright © 2003 Gainesville Times. All Rights Reserved.
timberlandko wrote:First, questioning Kerry's medals most certainly in no way calls to question the awards and citations of those who IN FACT have earned same. What is challenged is the moral and ethical bankruptcy of frauds and liars.
Like the swiftboat liars...and would have Bush had gotten away with desertio had he been an ordinary citizen.
timberlandko wrote:Quote:147th Fighter Interceptor Group (FIG) History
On May 16, 1958 the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group (FIG), with its five new squadrons, was formed to support the 111 Fighter Interceptor Squadron. In August 1960 the unit was one of the first to transition to the F-102A all-weather fighter-interceptor and began a 24-hour runway alert commitment as part of the North American air defense network ...
... The 147th earned the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award in 1966 when it was proclaimed, "The most combat ready of all Air Guard units" ...
Winged Shield, Winged Sword: The History of the United States Air Force (1182 pp. 2 Vol., illustrations, photos, notes, suggested readings, index): Nalty, B. C. (ed); US Government Printing Office 1997
GPO Stock No. 008-070-00717-7 ISBN: 0-16-049009-X
Who ya gonna believe ... Buzzflash or the official history of the US Air Force?
AND, Bush wasn't in the 147th in 1966. He wasn't assigned to the 147th until May 27, 1968.
IAW AF Instruction 36-2803, THE AIR FORCE AWARDS AND DECORATIONS PROGRAM
All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.
timberlandko wrote:First, questioning Kerry's medals most certainly in no way calls to question the awards and citations of those who IN FACT have earned same. What is challenged is the moral and ethical bankruptcy of frauds and liars who profess military decorations not in fact due them. To cheapen the honor of the deserving by falsely claiming fellowship with them is inexcuseable.
the hell it doesn't...
i for one would like to see the paperwork for o'neill's medals. every single and last one of them.
when can i expect for him to sign the release form and publish said paperwork?
of course, i/we will also expect some sort of corroboration to verify that the paperwork wasn't falsified by him to get a medal for show.
also;
i would like to know why thurlow accepted a medal that he admits wasn't due him.
when can i/we expect for him to publicly return the medal and make a full apology for his dishonesty?
did anybody else just notice that door opening up a little bit more??
squinney, the 1966 Unit Citation was the first of a continuing series of an unbroken string of subsequent re-awards to the unit, something the 147th brags about on its own website, but whatthehell, you've got your mind made up.
Your welcome to stick your foot as far over that doorsill as you wish, Dont ... just don't be surprised when your foot gets smashed as the door swings back.
Quote:but whatthehell, you've got your mind made up.
pot; meet kettle. Do you truly consider yourself to have an open mind on this issue Timber?
Cycloptichorn
