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Origin of the Universe

 
 
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 04:11 pm
How can the origin of the universe and creation be explained without a sovereign God?
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Type: Question • Score: 11 • Views: 7,953 • Replies: 140

 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 04:47 pm
@abwishman,
Ab, by not requiring creation

http://able2know.org/topic/322040-1#post-6182086
abwishman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 04:49 pm
@dalehileman,
So basically the universe has just existed forever?
dalehileman
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 04:51 pm
@abwishman,
Quote:
forever?
Sure Ab, why not
abwishman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 05:02 pm
@dalehileman,
Shouldn't there be some sort of beginning? What about life, do you believe life has life existed on the universe forever?
fresco
 
  4  
Reply Tue 10 May, 2016 11:34 pm
@abwishman,
The concepts 'time', 'beginning' , 'creation' etc (like all concepts) are human constructs used in conjunction with the human pre-occupation with our relatively superior species abilities to predict and control our lives. Successful prediction and control are elements in what we call 'explanation' , but of course we have no ultimate control, so we invent 'God' as 'The Big Controller' to cover the outfield.
Smileyrius
 
  4  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 02:16 am
Actually an infinite universe theory would require the breaking of natural laws to occur, That doesn't make it impossible, after all, any thing that exists outside of the universe would be by definition supernatural.
dalehileman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 11:07 am
@abwishman,
Quote:
Shouldn't there be some sort of beginning?
Why

Quote:
life existed on the universe forever?
Depends on its size. If infinite, which I doubt, of course you'd always find life somewhere
dalehileman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 11:09 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Actually an infinite universe theory would require the breaking of natural laws to occur
But Smiley, why

Also why assume anything "outside" it
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 11:13 am
That which IS has no beginning nor end although it is finite, measurable, and has an extension of operation. Such extension of operation includes the algorithmic context within spacetime. It just happens I am not convinced whatsoever time is a primary order property of the world.
dalehileman
 
  4  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 11:20 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
That which IS has no beginning nor end although it is finite, measurable,
I'd agree, for what it's worth
...not much

Quote:
...extension of operation...includes the algorithmic context within spacetime.
??

Quote:
...not convinced...time is a primary order property of the world
??
It's pretty real
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 11:35 am
@dalehileman,
...an algorithm expresses the logical pathway of a process. Think on the perfect path within a labyrinth...Life is an algorithmic process. But anything is, even geological processes...
Objects while existing interact with their surroundings according with the laws of physics and their context. This implies they operate within a contextual algorithm with X given extension within spacetime. Its finite.

Experiencing the passage of time is pretty real we agree. What I said is that I am not convinced Time is a primary order phenomena. I believe the whole of reality is settled with all lengths of spacetime in an ensemble, but with order, a sequencing. Hence objects have spacetime extension. A limit of operation within spacetime and within a context of they surrounding historical environment, again according with the laws of physics. Don't know if that helped. My argument is that I don't believe in any sort of vacuum or perfect emptiness/nothingness, the concept is dumb and self contradictory. Hence nothing which IS, actually appears or disappears. The world, reality, also didn't come out of nothingness nor will it end in nothingness. It is a loop yet finite and self repeating. Eternal.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 11:45 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
A good metaphor would be:

Think of a clock with the whole 12 digits always existing, but phasing in only when the needle, the "reader" passes over them...the process is a loop, finite in information size, only 12 digits, orderly, and yet infinite without beginning nor end when it comes to time repeating.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 04:10 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Objects while existing interact with their surroundings according with the laws of physics and their context.
I'd hafta agree

Quote:
...a contextual algorithm with X given extension.... Its finite
Thanks Fil but I'm still in the dark. And forgive an old fella but what's finite


Eng, Tes, help, we need a translation
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2016 05:32 pm
@dalehileman,
Finite is that which is countable, measurable, rational, not limitless, with a limited extension. It has a specific countable size...
In the case the "operation field" is also focused and limited not limitless. Just like a word can operate with different contexts and meanings but breaks up if you stretch it to far. The operation field of a word is not unlimited. Same goes for all concepts, as the objects per se. All things have a campus on which they deal or interact which is not infinite in diversity. Such field of operation has a range that goes from optimum to mediocre. A fork is good for eating rice but bad for eating soup. yet it is possible. That's one example on the limit on the range of operation of a fork
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 05:18 am
@dalehileman,
I will explain it as best as I understand it, allowing for of course that I am no scientist, just an enthusiast

Thermodynamics teaches that in any closed system the amount of heat in that system will eventually reach equilibrium. So if the universe existed for an infinite amount of time before now, then all areas in the universe would be equally warm. Obviously, we can tell this is not true, because we can observe differences in temperature.
It also teaches that no new energy can be created, the existing energy when used is only recycled into a less usable form of energy. Using the same infinite principle, all energy would have become benign and unusable an infinite amount of time ago. In order for the clock principle to work, it would still require a self sustaining energy source to supply the turning of the clock hand or reader
A third understanding is that of course the universe is expanding and particles are drifting further and further apart. if this has been ongoing for an infinite amount of time, then our particles would be space dust, drifting ever apart.

So you see the laws of thermodynamics would need to be debunked in order to establish an infinite universe theory.

The mention of something "outside" the universe was premised on a finite universe theory (a universe with a beginning)and the term I used was likely fuelled by a preconceived bias, but perhaps I can explain. People who have a theory on the origin of the universe can usually be categorized into one of two categories, a belief in one of the two following statements

a) something caused nothing to become something

or

b) nothing caused nothing to become something

Considering a) something that caused the universe to be would have to operate outside of the universe and by nature would not be bound by its laws, alternately if b) nothing caused the universe to come about, the principle of causality is negated.
One way or another the natural laws that bind this universe have been compromised

Whenever I indulge a conversation on science I usually like to offer a caveat that I am sorry for any inaccuracies in my rudimentary understanding. I welcome any correction.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 05:32 am
We don't know that the cosmos is a closed system. We just assume it is. However, absent any evidence that it is not a closed system--it's a reasonable assumption. Unlike all that god BS . . .
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 07:28 am
@Setanta,
A good point and noted Smile
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 09:07 am
And, of course, there is so much we don't know about the Universe. That kind of ignorance can breed all kinds of imaginative scenarios. Just accept the fact that we don't know and carry on in trying to acquire more knowledge.
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2016 09:10 am
@xingu,
Indeed, the universe works in mysterious ways, who can but know the ways of the cosmos Smile

Smiley,
Being playful
0 Replies
 
 

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