Origin of the Universe

Ab, by not requiring creation

http://able2know.org/topic/322040-1#post-6182086

So basically the universe has just existed forever?

Sure Ab, why not

Shouldn't there be some sort of beginning? What about life, do you believe life has life existed on the universe forever?

The concepts 'time', 'beginning' , 'creation' etc (like all concepts) are human constructs used in conjunction with the human pre-occupation with our relatively superior species abilities to predict and control our lives. Successful prediction and control are elements in what we call 'explanation' , but of course we have no ultimate control, so we invent 'God' as 'The Big Controller' to cover the outfield.

Actually an infinite universe theory would require the breaking of natural laws to occur, That doesn't make it impossible, after all, any thing that exists outside of the universe would be by definition supernatural.

Why

Depends on its size. If infinite, which I doubt, of course you'd always find life somewhere

But Smiley, why

Also why assume anything "outside" it

That which IS has no beginning nor end although it is finite, measurable, and has an extension of operation. Such extension of operation includes the algorithmic context within spacetime. It just happens I am not convinced whatsoever time is a primary order property of the world.

I'd agree, for what it's worth
...not much

??

??
It's pretty real

...an algorithm expresses the logical pathway of a process. Think on the perfect path within a labyrinth...Life is an algorithmic process. But anything is, even geological processes...
Objects while existing interact with their surroundings according with the laws of physics and their context. This implies they operate within a contextual algorithm with X given extension within spacetime. Its finite.

Experiencing the passage of time is pretty real we agree. What I said is that I am not convinced Time is a primary order phenomena. I believe the whole of reality is settled with all lengths of spacetime in an ensemble, but with order, a sequencing. Hence objects have spacetime extension. A limit of operation within spacetime and within a context of they surrounding historical environment, again according with the laws of physics. Don't know if that helped. My argument is that I don't believe in any sort of vacuum or perfect emptiness/nothingness, the concept is dumb and self contradictory. Hence nothing which IS, actually appears or disappears. The world, reality, also didn't come out of nothingness nor will it end in nothingness. It is a loop yet finite and self repeating. Eternal.

A good metaphor would be:

Think of a clock with the whole 12 digits always existing, but phasing in only when the needle, the "reader" passes over them...the process is a loop, finite in information size, only 12 digits, orderly, and yet infinite without beginning nor end when it comes to time repeating.

I'd hafta agree

Thanks Fil but I'm still in the dark. And forgive an old fella but what's finite


Eng, Tes, help, we need a translation

Finite is that which is countable, measurable, rational, not limitless, with a limited extension. It has a specific countable size...
In the case the "operation field" is also focused and limited not limitless. Just like a word can operate with different contexts and meanings but breaks up if you stretch it to far. The operation field of a word is not unlimited. Same goes for all concepts, as the objects per se. All things have a campus on which they deal or interact which is not infinite in diversity. Such field of operation has a range that goes from optimum to mediocre. A fork is good for eating rice but bad for eating soup. yet it is possible. That's one example on the limit on the range of operation of a fork

I will explain it as best as I understand it, allowing for of course that I am no scientist, just an enthusiast

Thermodynamics teaches that in any closed system the amount of heat in that system will eventually reach equilibrium. So if the universe existed for an infinite amount of time before now, then all areas in the universe would be equally warm. Obviously, we can tell this is not true, because we can observe differences in temperature.
It also teaches that no new energy can be created, the existing energy when used is only recycled into a less usable form of energy. Using the same infinite principle, all energy would have become benign and unusable an infinite amount of time ago. In order for the clock principle to work, it would still require a self sustaining energy source to supply the turning of the clock hand or reader
A third understanding is that of course the universe is expanding and particles are drifting further and further apart. if this has been ongoing for an infinite amount of time, then our particles would be space dust, drifting ever apart.

So you see the laws of thermodynamics would need to be debunked in order to establish an infinite universe theory.

The mention of something "outside" the universe was premised on a finite universe theory (a universe with a beginning)and the term I used was likely fuelled by a preconceived bias, but perhaps I can explain. People who have a theory on the origin of the universe can usually be categorized into one of two categories, a belief in one of the two following statements

a) something caused nothing to become something

or

b) nothing caused nothing to become something

Considering a) something that caused the universe to be would have to operate outside of the universe and by nature would not be bound by its laws, alternately if b) nothing caused the universe to come about, the principle of causality is negated.
One way or another the natural laws that bind this universe have been compromised

Whenever I indulge a conversation on science I usually like to offer a caveat that I am sorry for any inaccuracies in my rudimentary understanding. I welcome any correction.

We don't know that the cosmos is a closed system. We just assume it is. However, absent any evidence that it is not a closed system--it's a reasonable assumption. Unlike all that god BS . . .

A good point and noted

And, of course, there is so much we don't know about the Universe. That kind of ignorance can breed all kinds of imaginative scenarios. Just accept the fact that we don't know and carry on in trying to acquire more knowledge.

Indeed, the universe works in mysterious ways, who can but know the ways of the cosmos

Smiley,
Being playful