Origin of the Universe

@abwishman,

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Okay, where did the original matter come from?

It was always there, in some form

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And how did it form life one day?

Chemical reactions

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an outside force would need to act on them

Wind, rain, sunshine, etc

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@abwishman,

abwishman wrote:

Even if all of the necessary ingredients for life were in one spot an outside force would need to act on them in order to create life.

Don't know anything about chemistry, do you?

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@Setanta,

there are plenty of "outside forces" acting on stuff
Gravity, tempereature, pressure, pH/Eh, equilibrium constants, , the various helices.

Why does Na preferably combine with Cl or OH ? rather than organics. Does some god cause that?
every single chemical combination has a prefered environment of phsyical-chemical forves that drive it to completion (and often back). Catalysts sit around in the environment just to noodge a reaction on without causing any change to themselves, god? no, just physics an chemistry.

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When our boy abwishman here says outside forces, he means "god did it," and don't you forget it!

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@farmerman,

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there are plenty of "outside forces" acting on stuff
Gravity, tempereature, pressure, pH/Eh, equilibrium constants, , the various helices.

And don't forget random chance :-)

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@dalehileman,

If matter is natural (which it is) then it would need to have some sort of beginning, whether it was created or not. It could not have just existed forever until everything blew up and turned into life. Also, in empty space wouldn't there be no wind rain or sunshine to act on the matter?

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@abwishman,

abwishman wrote:

If matter is natural (which it is) then it would need to have some sort of beginning, whether it was created or not. It could not have just existed forever until everything blew up and turned into life. Also, in empty space wouldn't there be no wind rain or sunshine to act on the matter?

Our present understanding of the Universe completely encapsulates Time and Space. We don't know anything about what is, or might be, outside of this model.

The very concept of Time may not exist outside of our Universe, and if that is the case, then the human mind doesn't even have the foundation from which to formulate a meaningful question about anything. We don't have any basis to ask about origins or ends because all of those things imply the flow of time.

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@abwishman,

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have...beginning, whether it was created or not

Sorry Ab but this doesn't make sense to me

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It could not have just existed forever

Why not

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Also, in empty space wouldn't there be no wind rain or sunshine

Of course not but so what

Clearly we don't understand one another

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@dalehileman,

Honestly how could the universe exist forever? Isn't it more reasonable to have a God who created the universe supernaturally then saying the universe has existed forever with no proof behind it?

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@fresco,

I THINK you missed the point Smile

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@abwishman,

No,THIS is the point !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
...but the integrity of what you have come to call 'yourself' would be damaged by your acceptance of it, hence 'thinking' is curtailed.

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@abwishman,

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Isn't it more reasonable to have a God who created the universe supernaturally then saying the universe has existed forever with no proof behind it?

But you'd be saying there's a God who created the Universe without any proof behind that either.

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@Tes yeux noirs,

Yes, and additionally, there is an inference that the "god" has existed forever with no proof behind that.

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@abwishman,

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Isn't it more reasonable to have a God who created the universe supernaturally then saying the universe has existed forever with no proof behind it?

No. Where did god come from? What created her? You add even MORE problems...and obviously there's zero evidence.

Regardless, the universe hasn't existed forever, it started at the big bang. We don't know where or why it happened.

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@rosborne979,

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he human mind doesn't even have the foundation from which to formulate a meaningful question about anything.

Well said! Humans are an amazing product of evolution, yet just advanced animals. Your pet cat's brain has a limit of understanding, surely the same applies to us.

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@Setanta,

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Yes, and additionally, there is an inference that the "god" has existed forever with no proof behind that.

Theoretical physicists do the same thing with the universe. A single occurrence of the universe bothers them (as it should) so they keep coming up with more 'possible' schemes for how the universe could be eternal or just part of a never ending 'multiverse' - with no proof whatsoever.

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@Leadfoot,

Their proofs are mathematical equations.

What are your proofs?

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@abwishman,

abwishman wrote:

I think with a sovereign God everything is explained quite simply.

At the cost of introducing an additional entity that needs explaining. Setanta is right: that's not an explanation, that's just kicking the can down the road.

abwishman wrote:

He created the universe and everything in it with purpose and a sense of order.

How does that explain vestigial organs like the whale's leg bones and the human's appendix? How does it explain stupid designs such as our eyes, whose nerves come out of the wrong end of the retina, or the larynxial nerve of the giraffe, which, on its way from the brain to the voice box, takes a 5-yard detour down the giraffe's neck, around the heart, and back up the neck again? Even without the problem that an autonomous god would herself need explaining, your hypothesis falls far short of yielding an explanation of everything, or even everything important.

abwishman wrote:

But you are correct in saying we can probably never fully understand the universe because of its possible infinity. However, that adds to the majesty of how it has been created. It also shows how powerless we are.

If the lack of an explanation is so great, why not just leave the unexplainable parts of the universe unexplained? Why ruin the majesty of the universe with pretend-explanations such as gods?

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@kency123,

kency123 wrote:

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he human mind doesn't even have the foundation from which to formulate a meaningful question about anything.
Well said! Humans are an amazing product of evolution, yet just advanced animals. Your pet cat's brain has a limit of understanding, surely the same applies to us.

The full context of that quote was this:

rosborne979 wrote:

The very concept of Time may not exist outside of our Universe, and if that is the case, then the human mind doesn't even have the foundation from which to formulate a meaningful question about anything.

The point being that without the flow of time, we have no context to formulate meaningful questions. But within our perceived reality, we certainly do have the foundation to ask meaningful questions.

I just wanted to make sure that quote didn't get misread through lack of context.

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@InfraBlue,

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Their proofs are mathematical equations.

There are no mathematical proofs for the 'Bubble Universe' and others like the 'quantum parallel universes'. They are based purely on speculation and the 'need' to see the universe as eternal.

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What are your proofs?

I am not foolish enough to present them as 'proofs' but I have shown the mathematical evidence for a God in other threads like the various ones on ID.

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Origin of the Universe

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