Larry Elder on Sen. Kerry

From earlier on the same thread:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=861724#861724

Also the two posts that I consider most pertinent and informative on this subject:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=851566#851566

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=851661#851661

My summary:

1.) There was a great New York Times graph which you can find here a number of places that showed how many of the SBVFT have contradicted themselves. They have glowingly praised Kerry in the past -- yet they are now basing their criticism on their own memories, since the records back up Kerry's and Kerry's supporters account. (And in terms of Kerry's supporters, 9 out of 10 people who actually served with him support him.)

2.) The Cambodia thing keeps being talked about as a definite lie, but the only cite I've been given says that the Christmas part might not be right while the Cambodia part is. Nobody has shown anything that proves he was NOT in Cambodia. Christmas vs. January, especially in the context of the quote, is laughably minor.

3.) Human memories are malleable. There is a big difference between purposely lying and remembering differently than someone else, especially after 35 years have passed.

4.) Medals were given out willy-nilly. Lots of people have talked about that. If Kerry got his medals within that system, who cares??

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
I may be wrong, but it was my belief that it had be conclusively proven to such an extent that the Kerry campaign admitted he wasn't there.

I fully expect you to start treating Kerry as if he is innocent of these scurrilous allegations, then, and stop assuming he's guilty.

You are in a major error here; nothing more has been conclusively proven about this than Your Boy Bush's absence from duty.

Cycloptichorn

How can I treat him as innocent if his own campaign admits he's gulity?

From: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3395977

"Two weeks ago Kerry's spokesmen began to backtrack. First, one campaign aide explained that Kerry had patrolled the Mekong Delta somewhere 'between' Cambodia and Vietnam. But there is no between; there is a border. Then another spokesman told reporters that Kerry had been 'near Cambodia.' But the point of Kerry's 1986 speech was that he personally had taken part in a secret and illegal war in a neutral country. That was only true if he was "in Cambodia," as he had often said he was. If he was merely 'near,' then his deliberate misstatement falsified the entire speech. "

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sozobe wrote:

From earlier on the same thread:

.....2.) The Cambodia thing keeps being talked about as a definite lie, but the only cite I've been given says that the Christmas part might not be right while the Cambodia part is. Nobody has shown anything that proves he was NOT in Cambodia. Christmas vs. January, especially in the context of the quote, is laughably minor.....

Actually, in this thread I am only discussing the Cambodia isssue.

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sozobe wrote:

So, guess when they worked along the border they called that being in Cambodia. Maybe it's like a shorthand thing.

'Cause O'Neill says he was in Cambodia, too. He doesn't say "I wasn't in Cambodia [what question was he answering?], I was along the border." He says, "I was in Cambodia, sir."

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And again, no, the point of the statement was that he saw a president saying something that was untrue, and remembered how he felt about it. THAT is what was seared.

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sozobe wrote:

sozobe wrote:
So, guess when they worked along the border they called that being in Cambodia. Maybe it's like a shorthand thing.

'Cause O'Neill says he was in Cambodia, too. He doesn't say "I wasn't in Cambodia [what question was he answering?], I was along the border." He says, "I was in Cambodia, sir."

Since the early 70s, Kerry has spoken and written of how he was illegally ordered to enter Cambodia. Kerry mentioned it in the Senate in 1986. Here's what he said:

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me."

Since Senator Kerry's whole point seems to be that he was in Cambodia while Nixon was saying there were no troops there, if he was not actually in the country, then the entire point of his statement is based on a falsehood.

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As I have said before, Brandon...

Do you think there is a big line in the middle of the river that says 'now entering Cambodia?' Do you think that there could be some confusion as to where they actually where? Are you claiming Kerry never went into Cambodia at all?

One way or the other, what does it matter? There WERE U.S. soldiers in Cambodia, surely you are not charging that there were not? You people pushing this issue disgust me; it's like you are searching for the smallest scrap of evidence you can find to discredit the guy.

Why don't you just focus on the issues? The typical answer to this is 'Kerry chose to make Vietnam the focus of the election,' which is bullsh*t; Bush chose to attack Kerry's ability to lead, Kerry decided to talk a little bit more about actually serving in war vs. sitting at home during Vietnam, now he is being blasted for that....

There is more evidence that Kerry was in Cambodia than there is that Bush showed up for his last year of duty, but I don't see you applying the same critical eye to Bush's records. Is there some partisanship involved here, Brandon?

I just want you to admit that, yes, you would like to see him found guilty, because he opposes the candidate you support.

Cycloptichorn

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I disagree with that. It's a matter of emphasis.

Meanwhile, O'Neil said he was in Cambodia, too, in a taped conversation with Nixon. The same O'Neil who has been saying that Kerry was not in Cambodia because he, O'Neil, was never in Cambodia.

It's a mess, and who knows what the truth is, but at worst, while making a rhetorical point, he lied about whether he was actually IN Cambodia as opposed to NEAR Cambodia when, in fact, troops were there and the president was saying they weren't.

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

As I have said before, Brandon...

Do you think there is a big line in the middle of the river that says 'now entering Cambodia?' Do you think that there could be some confusion as to where they actually where? Are you claiming Kerry never went into Cambodia at all?

I am claiming that he made a repeated statement that was false about his service. If the actual problem was that he really thought until recently that he was in Cambodia, then why has his campaign never used that as a defense?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

One way or the other, what does it matter? There WERE U.S. soldiers in Cambodia, surely you are not charging that there were not?

A repeated lie about his war service by a candidate for the presidency would be very relevant.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

There is more evidence that Kerry was in Cambodia than there is that Bush showed up for his last year of duty, but I don't see you applying the same critical eye to Bush's records. Is there some partisanship involved here, Brandon?

Alright, then, please show me some evidence that Senator Kerry was in Cambodia during Christmas 1968.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I just want you to admit that, yes, you would like to see him found guilty, because he opposes the candidate you support.

I will admit that I would like to see him found guilty if he is guilty because he opposes the candidate I support. But, as I said, his own campaign has admitted that what he said was false, so in what way is he going to be innocent of lying about this?

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Quote:

Please show me some evidence that Senator Kerry was in Cambodia during Christmas 1968.

Please show me evidence that he wasn't. Remember, the burden of proof is upon you. The comments made by his campaign advisors are no more relevant to the case than any other accusations, and are hardly conclusive; his aides weren't there, they don't know whether he was in Cambodia or not. The fact is, you don't have any that conclusively proves it one way or the other.

Now, if you want to argue that he wasn't there till Janurary, you are splitting hairs and getting to the point of ridiculousness.

I ask again. Is it your contention that Kerry was NEVER in Cambodia? That U.S. soldiers were not in Cambodia?

And, once again, given the level of scrutiny that you are displaying towards Kerry's record, there should be an overwhelming amount of evidence that Bush completed his duty. There is NOT an even substantial amount of evidence that he did. Can you explain this discrepancy, given your critical and non-partisan eye for the truth?

Cycloptichorn

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Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I bet if you interviewed a hundred people on the street you would have a hard time finding one person who gives a royal rat's ass about Kerry's Cambodia statement and if you found that one person, he or she would tell you it is a non-issue. It is just amazing what straws desperate people will attempt to grasp when the facts are against them.

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Harper, you are saying then that for a presidential candidate to repeatedly lie in public about his war service is not relevant? Interesting viewpoint.

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psst, Brandon, just in case you missed it, Cyclop had an interesting post at the bottom of the last page...

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Awwww :blush:

From Sozobe's quality thread on the issue:

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:
it was just reported on cnn that john ellis o'neill has apparently contradicted himself.

in a taped interview provided by his publicist, o'neill stated that he had never been in cambodia.

however, a tape recorded during a conversation with richard nixon in 1971, o'neill tells nixon that he did go to cambodia.

nixon then asked him if he went there on a swift boat.

o'neill answered in the affirmative.

nixon and his tape recorder... even though i met him once, i never wanted to kiss him before.

It seems that Kerry has at least one person who agrees that they were in Cambodia. There is now a much larger body of evidence that he was there, than evidence that he was not.

Cycloptichorn

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A little snippet from another thread.

Quote:

but the president has said John Kerry served honorably and also the president is now committed to acting to try to bring 527s into regulations that are appropriate."

If Bush says Kerry served honorably, and you think that Bush is a good, truth-telling leader, then why don't you drop it?

Either Kerry was an honorable soldier, or Bush is lying and saying Kerry is an honorable soldier. Which one is it?

Cycloptichorn

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Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Please show me some evidence that Senator Kerry was in Cambodia during Christmas 1968.

Please show me evidence that he wasn't. Remember, the burden of proof is upon you.

My statement was in response to this one of yours:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

....There is more evidence that Kerry was in Cambodia than there is that Bush showed up for his last year of duty....

It hardly makes sense to tell me that there is oodles of evidence and then get defensive when I ask if you can show me any.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

....I ask again. Is it your contention that Kerry was NEVER in Cambodia? That U.S. soldiers were not in Cambodia?

Not at all. It is my contention that Senator Kerry seems to have often repeated a lie about his service.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

....And, once again, given the level of scrutiny that you are displaying towards Kerry's record, there should be an overwhelming amount of evidence that Bush completed his duty. There is NOT an even substantial amount of evidence that he did. Can you explain this discrepancy, given your critical and non-partisan eye for the truth?

Sure. The accuser has the burden of proof. The accused is not required to affirmatively prove innocence. I only asked you for proof because you volunteered the fact that there was lots of it. It is not Senator Kerry's duty to affirmatively prove his innocence, but rather his critics' to prove his guilt. Here is some evidence of his guilt:

From: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040830/opinion/30barone.htm

Quote:

This month the Kerry Campaign abandoned one claim that John Kerry had made for years about his Vietnam War service and put another into question. The claim that has been dropped: that Kerry was in Cambodia at Christmastime in 1968. In a 1979 review of the movie Apocalypse Now in the Boston Herald, Kerry wrote, "I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 5 miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our Vietnamese allies." In a 1986 speech on the Senate floor, Kerry said, "I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. . . . I have that memory which is seared-seared-in me." In a 1992 interview with States News Service, Kerry claimed, "On Christmas Eve of 1968, I was on a gunboat in a firefight that wasn't supposed to be taking place." That year he also told the Associated Press, "Everybody was over there [in Cambodia]. Nobody thought twice about it......

.....On August 11, Kerry spokesman Michael Meehan said Kerry's boat was "in the watery borders between Vietnam and Cambodia" on Christmas Eve.

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Talk about dancing on the head of a pin. This is just utter desperation. Pathetic, yet fun to watch!

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Harper wrote:

Talk about dancing on the head of a pin. This is just utter desperation. Pathetic, yet fun to watch!

The thing I like best about you is that you almost never debate any of your opponents points, but seem to function almost solely on the level of name calling.

Once again, are you saying then that for a presidential candidate to repeatedly lie in public about his war service is not relevant?

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There's a difference between abandoning a claim because it is difficult to prove, and admitting guilt.

See my above post about O'neil confirming the trip to Cambodia.

Cycloptichorn

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Brandon, some things are best left to drown from their own weight.

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Larry Elder on Sen. Kerry

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