19
   

How can one who believes in no God have true morals?

 
 
neologist
 
  4  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2016 08:13 pm
@braydenvaness,
braydenvaness wrote:
what do you mean by naturally? And what standard would we have to base these morals without the existence of God?
You say you are a believer?
Believe this
Quote:
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them (Romans 2: 14,15)
In fact, most non believers I have met have high moral standards carefully thought through, and without any hope for reward.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2016 08:41 pm
@neologist,
How selfless.
0 Replies
 
jhuey37
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 May, 2016 08:50 pm
@Foofie,
I do see what you are trying to get at. What are you meaning when you say "ethical" in the last part of your answer?
0 Replies
 
kency123
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2016 12:33 pm
@braydenvaness,
Quote:
I am not saying morals must come from reading the Bible, but what do we base these morals off of if there is not greater power or standard then man himself?

Have a bit more faith in humanity. 'Morals' are part of evolution. We couldn't have survived without mutual understanding of what behavior was needed to serve the greater good. If serving a god is your reason for following morals, it's selfish (being good to get yourself into heaven), shows lack of instinct, and can be very dangerous. ISIS think they're doing the right thing for their god, right?

As the famous quote goes, "with or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
braydenvaness
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2016 08:48 pm
@rosborne979,
But you still have not answered how can we know exactly what behaviors are right or wrong with out their being a higher standard?
braydenvaness
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2016 08:58 pm
@kency123,
I understand what you are saying here, but you are not exactly answering my question. Without a higher standard where did mans morals come from, how do they decide what is right or wrong if their is no higher standard to live up to? That is not saying that serving God is the reason for morals, what i am asking is how can man who is obviously not perfect make the decision of what is right or wrong without a higher standard? I am not doubting man at all.
braydenvaness
 
  0  
Reply Wed 18 May, 2016 09:02 pm
@neologist,
I am not saying that non believers can not have morals, all i am asking is how can man who is obviously not perfect(Christians obviously included) be the ones to decide what is right or wrong? There must be a higher standard that we base what is right or wrong upon.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 12:09 am
@braydenvaness,
braydenvaness wrote:
I am not saying that non believers can not have morals, all i am asking is how can man who is obviously not perfect(Christians obviously included) be the ones to decide what is right or wrong? There must be a higher standard that we base what is right or wrong upon.
Nearly all humans have remnants of Adam and Eve's built in conscience, But it is not enough and never could be. As Jeremiah said
Quote:
O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. (Jeremiah 10:23)
kency123
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 02:55 am
@braydenvaness,
Quote:
Without a higher standard where did mans morals come from, how do they decide what is right or wrong if their is no higher standard to live up to?

Evolution. The basics of human morality come from within but were not a conscious decision. All social animals have rules of behavior for overriding individual desire in favor of the greater good of the family/tribe/species. Groups who find theft, murder, ignorance of their needy etc acceptable....die out very, very quickly. This is why the basics of morality are the same across the species, and have been so for all recorded history.

Quote:
how can man who is obviously not perfect make the decision of what is right or wrong without a higher standard?
There's no perfection out there. Agreeing intricacies of right and wrong can be very hard, and perfect external morals would be fantastically convenient. However there never has been and never will be. The ultimate aim of our morals is for us as a social species to live together peacefully and happily, and pass it on to the next generation. That's what we should measure the details by. Measuring by externals for the purpose of a god digresses from that aim and can result in disastrous consequences for peace and survival (e.g. ISIS)
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 04:19 am
@braydenvaness,
braydenvaness wrote:

But you still have not answered how can we know exactly what behaviors are right or wrong with out their being a higher standard?

Right and Wrong are subjective. They come from us and from our culture, but are usually rooted in empathy and compassion which are hard-wired into our mammalian brain.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 06:38 am
@kency123,
Quote:
This is why the basics of morality are the same across the species, and have been so for all recorded history.
Is that why chimps practice cannibalism? Praying mantis' eat their mate after do'n it? I think you exaggerate here.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 10:22 am
@rosborne979,
braydenvaness wrote:
But you still have not answered how can we know exactly what behaviors are right or wrong with out their being a higher standard?
rosborne979 wrote:
Right and Wrong are subjective. They come from us and from our culture, but are usually rooted in empathy and compassion which are hard-wired into our mammalian brain.
You mean conscience?
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 12:38 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
This is why the basics of morality are the same across the species, and have been so for all recorded history.
Is that why chimps practice cannibalism? Praying mantis' eat their mate after do'n it? I think you exaggerate here.


Humans have been known to practice cannibalism as well. Even the god of the Bible prescribes it as a punishment for disobedience (Leviticus 26:14).
kency123
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 01:11 pm
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
Is that why chimps practice cannibalism? Praying mantis' eat their mate after do'n it? I think you exaggerate here.

Morals same across the human species, not all species of animal
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 01:24 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Humans have been known to practice cannibalism as well. Even the god of the Bible prescribes it as a punishment for disobedience (Leviticus 26:14).
Even a bible literalist would have a hard time getting cannibalism out of that one. You stretch too far.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 01:42 pm
@Leadfoot,
I think Blue may have meant to misinterpret Leviticus 26:29, a prophecy which was later fulfilled when Jerusalem was under siege.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 03:10 pm
@neologist,
You're probably right, but in any case, it's far removed from the subject of what God or evolution has placed in the heart of man.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 04:06 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Humans have been known to practice cannibalism as well. Even the god of the Bible prescribes it as a punishment for disobedience (Leviticus 26:14).
Even a bible literalist would have a hard time getting cannibalism out of that one. You stretch too far.

Actually, it's Leviticus 26:29 "Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat." It's part of the list of punishments that the god would visit upon his people for disobedience. There are references in other books as well, e.g. Deuteronomy 28:53-57, 2 Kings 6:26-29, Jeremiah 19:9, etc..
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 04:09 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

You're probably right, but in any case, it's far removed from the subject of what God or evolution has placed in the heart of man.

The point is that not only animals practice cannibalism. Humans have also done it and with the rationalization of religious morality, e.g. "God compelled us to eat our children."
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2016 04:13 pm
@InfraBlue,
You are using the extreme circumstance that those people found themselves in with a cultural or moral norm. There is no such relationship there. You should have no trouble seeing the difference.
 

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