Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 06:12 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
And back then, a whopping 45% (!) of Hillary voters said they would either vote for John McCain or not vote at all in the general election if Barack Obama were to be the nominee (http://politics.nytimes.com/.../results/vote-polls/PA.html).

Excellent!

I guess the full link is:
http://politics.nytimes.com/election-guide/2008/results/vote-polls/PA.html\
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 06:26 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Sanders supporters are spewing vitriol all over the landscape


I love irony.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 06:30 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:
Everyone always wants whoever is not their choice to drop out as soon as possible and every candidate in such a situation wants to keep the campaign going as long as possible. This is just the usual tug of war between camps who want to call their win and those who don't want to cede defeat yet. Frankly there is a lot of acrimony in this part of the back and forth itself that will mostly just all evaporate by general elections like it always does.


This election feels a little different to me, just because Bernie Sanders is more of an outsider. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are fairly similar candidates in terms of philosophy and positions. Bernie Sanders is far different than either of them.

I am hoping that Bernie Sanders campaign will have a lasting effect on the Democratic establishment. There is certainly appetite among the Democratic base for this type of change that Bernie represents.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 08:43 am
@maxdancona,
Actually the base of the democratic party is voting for Hillary. It is independent leaning democrats and the youths who have never voted before who are voting for Sanders. Those are facts which have been proven over and over again through out the primaries and caucuses.

However, the young and the democratic leaning independents can and might change the party, make it more left than it currently is. A lot of the base like Sander's ideals and plans but voted or plan on voting Hillary for various reasons. Perhaps people like yourself and Elizabeth Warren can remain activist and by the time the next election comes around, another leftist candidate will come and be welcomed by both the base and the ones mentioned above. That would be a better option than the party splintering the way the republican party has.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 10:13 am
@revelette2,
Quote:
Actually the base of the democratic party is voting for Hillary. It is independent leaning democrats and the youths who have never voted before who are voting for Sanders. Those are facts which have been proven over and over again through out the primaries and caucuses.


This made me chuckle. I understand exactly what you are saying.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  4  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 10:25 am
@revelette2,
Maybe "base" isn't the word to use. But "independent" and "democratic-leaning" aren't very good terms to describe most Bernie supporters either as they imply people who are in-between Democrats and Republicans. That isn't true at all.

I support Bernie because I believe very strongly in what I consider progressive values like single payer healthcare, economic fairness, an end to military interventionism and social justice. On every one of these issues, Hillary Clinton represents a step backwards to me. I consider my positions as fully in the Democratic party (as stagnant as the Democratic party has become).

The Democratic party needs us (whatever you choose to call us). The Democratic party claims to be the party that supports our values and they certainly are counting on our votes. Since we are locked in a two party system, we need to work within the Democratic party... which is what we are doing.

The efforts made by the Democratic party establishment and the Clinton campaign to silence people trying to challenge the status quo are frustrating.

I wonder if just stifling dissent really is a better option than splintering the party. If the Republicans come back in 8 years with new ideas and a new purpose and new political strength there may come a time when we envy the fact that they are splintering now.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 10:58 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Sanders supporters are spewing vitriol all over the landscape--and you're trying to teach me about politics and the history of campaigns in the United States.


I've said nothing against the notion of Bernie bro rhetoric, I even acknowledged that despite the poll numbers not bearing out the divisiveness that there might be microcosms of personal experience (such as on a2k) where things are, indeed divided.

And I'm not trying to teach you anything. I don't think I ever seen you change your mind based on something I have said in the decades I have known you and am not about to start trying now.

I am just commenting with a different opinion than you had based on the data I've seen and if you don't like it you don't have to accept any of it and can move on.

Quote:
Mrs. Clinton is not my candidate. Mr. Sanders is not my candidate.


I don't consider either of them mine either, I am not preaching any candidate to you dude.

Quote:
The Senate is the issue which i consider most important. Spare me your shallow analysis. Have a nice day.


If you don't like it then feel free to ignore it, I am addressing the topic with my (different) opinion and you can do with it whatever you like.
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 10:59 am
@Olivier5,


FB truncated all the URLs when I copied the text but if you want all the links I can fish them up.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:08 am
@Robert Gentel,
Thanks, no need. In principle, it's always a good idea to give or fix source links but I repaired this one already.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:36 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
as long as Bernie shifts the types of criticism he makes of Clinton it is not a big deal for him to stay longer


it kind of is a big deal since he doesn't seem to have any interest in supporting downticket candidates

the one thing both Mr. Obama and Ms. Clinton have done is support/finance/campaign for downticket candidates. they are actually Democrats.

I think having a non-Democrat in the presidential campaign is harmful to the more important campaigns. There is no evidence he'll make any effort to assist downticket candidates.

Sen. Bernie Sanders’s ongoing hustle of the Democratic Party

Quote:
Lauding the Independent from Vermont’s fundraising prowess, the MSNBC anchor asked Sanders when he might start applying his considerable abilities to benefit the Democratic Party. In his response, Sanders pointed out that the average $27 contribution to his presidential campaign is “a very different way of raising money than Secretary Clinton has pursued.” So, Maddow pressed him.

MADDOW: Well, obviously your priority is the nomination, but I mean you raised Secretary Clinton there. She has been fundraising both for the nomination and for the Democratic Party. At some point, do you think — do you foresee a time during this campaign when you’ll start doing that?

SANDERS: Well, we’ll see. And, I mean right now, again, our focus is on winning the nomination. Secretary Clinton has access, uh, to kinds of money, uh, that we don’t, that we’re not even interested in. So let’s take it one step at a time. And the step that we’re in right now is to win the Democratic nomination.

“We’ll see”? “Secretary Clinton has access, uh, to kinds of money, uh, that we don’t, that we’re not even interested in”? To appreciate how those two comments expose Sanders’s hustle, you need some background.

Sanders, the self-identified Democratic Socialist, is a registered Independent who caucuses with the Senate Democrats. Not only has he been helpful in raising money for them in the past, he also has availed himself of those same funds. But in the race for the Democratic presidential nomination, Sanders has done nothing. In fact, he has disparaged Clinton at every opportunity for doing so.


snip

Quote:
Sanders makes it sound like Clinton is raising such obscene amounts of money for her campaign. In actuality, she’s raising money for herself, the Democratic Party and state Democratic parties around the country. Those funds would then be used to finance everything from “get out the vote” operations to phone banks and email blasts not only for the presidential nominee but also for House and Senate candidates down the ballot. In an election year in which the Republican presidential nominee could be Donald Trump, the prospects of Democrats holding the White House and possibly retaking the Senate AND the House are not remote. Having money to do this for the November elections will be essential.


snip

Quote:
So far, the Hillary Victory Fund has raised $26.9 million with more than $22 million of it going to the DNC and the state party committees.


snip

Quote:
Now, here’s where the Sanders hustle comes in.

While most people still assume that Clinton will win the Democratic nomination, all that money she is raising for the DNC and state parties will go to helping said nominee in the general election — even if that ends up being Sanders.

The master fundraiser who hasn’t lifted a finger to help his adopted party.

The fiery campaigner who has hammered his opponent for raising the money to fortify the DNC for the general election.

The person who stands to benefit enormously from Clinton’s big-money prowess without sullying his carefully crafted aura of campaign-finance purity.



from back in January

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/1/2/1465551/-Why-didn-t-Bernie-Sanders-raise-any-money-for-the-DNC

Quote:
One particular difference between the campaigns has been generating attention on this site: Clinton raised $18 million dollars for the Democratic National Committee, to be used in the general election to support Democratic candidates, while it appears Bernie Sanders has raised none.


the balance of dailykos piece is why he shouldn't bother helping the party

hmmm. ok. that's one take on it. not one I'd go for if I was an American Democrat.



__

from an earlier , but updated, article

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/1/2/1465523/-Hillary-Clinton-Outraises-Bernie-Sanders-in-Q4-Sanders-raises-nothing-for-Dem-Party

Quote:
Update II: I believe in party unity and in mending fences once the nominee is decided. And I will state again that I will work for and vote for the election of Sanders if he becomes the nominee. This is not the point. In diary over diary here on this site, Sanders supporters have demanded substance (i.e. policies) over biography. Yet the substance, when presented, seems to provoke outrage. I believe that it should be pointed out quite unequivocally that while Hillary Clinton has campaigned for and fundraised for downballot Democrats (consistently!! — as the 2007 numbers demonstrate as well), Sanders has not. These are the facts.

In many of the responses downthread, Sanders’ supporters are reacting with anything between happiness and glee that Sanders has not, in fact, contributed to the DNC. Like Jack Nicholson says to the little dog Verdell in As Good As It Gets, “Where’s the trust?” Granted, the DNC and the Sanders campaign had their spat. But I believe the ongoing lawsuit against the DNC by the Sanders campaign, as well as Sanders’ apparent reluctance to live up to the terms of the fundraising agreement with the DNC are much more damaging to party unity and to Sanders’ image, than any diary title I may choose. Still, it is encouraging to see that most Sanders’ supporters will be “OK” with Hillary Clinton in the General Election.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:39 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
it kind of is a big deal since he doesn't seem to have any interest in supporting downticket candidates


That would definitely be a big deal but it is not something I personally expect to happen and thusly not a worry I share with you. I expect Bernie to contribute toward the Democratic cause and will be both very surprised and very disappointed if he fails to do so.

Edit: and I don't find it odd at all that he isn't rushing to talk about what he will do when he loses back when he was still in the running, he wanted the focus to be on winning but when he loses I expect him to be more willing to talk about the other ways he can continue his movement.
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:39 am
@ehBeth,
It would still be a win if Sanders gets his voters to the polls. Anyone voting for Sanders is likely voting for Democrats in other races as well. Money would help of course, but votes are what put people in office.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:43 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
Anyone voting for Sanders is likely voting for Democrats in other races as well.


that's definitely not what I'm reading
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:46 am
@ehBeth,
The polls show that more Sanders supporters say they are willing to vote for Clinton than Clinton supporters in 2008 said would vote for Obama.

Back then even when almost double the amount said they would not vote for Obama they did when it came time to it, and this time around fewer people are saying they wouldn't vote for Clinton so I am not at all worried about this unless Bernie goes negative hard the rest of the way (which would just be a petty pointless thing to do).
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:46 am
@Robert Gentel,
He hasn't been helping downballot and doesn't show any indication of changing that.

I don't care who the Democratic candidate is (I don't think highly of either currently available option) but I do care about the Senate. I think that's what's going to make a real difference and where party money is needed. Not contributing to that effort but benefitting from party fundraising? ick is my polite thought.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:50 am
@Robert Gentel,
I'm not worried about/interested in Sanders v Clinton. If I lived in the US (and was in a jurisdiction where my vote didn't matter), I wouldn't vote for either of them.

I'm worried/concerned about the house and senate. IMNSHO Sanders needs to step up on party fundraising for that.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:50 am
@ehBeth,
I've seen you post this opinion a half dozen times before, and have looked into it as a result. And if I agreed with your take I'd share your feelings about it, but I don't. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:52 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

I've seen you post this opinion a half dozen times


that's a bit unlikely since I just found out about him not fundraising for the party today
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 11:54 am
@ehBeth,
I'm too lazy to dig up the posts I'm referring to so maybe I was wrong and someone else was making that point previously.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Apr, 2016 03:59 pm
@Robert Gentel,
You have zero rhetorical skills. You were preaching to me about what people say when "their candidate" is not performing as they would hope. Neither of these is my candidate. You're not addressing the topic at all.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
  1. Forums
  2. » ACRIMONY
  3. » Page 4
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/30/2024 at 03:46:23