The politics of despair

Sofia wrote:

My husband told me everyone hated the JGs. Sort of Fortunate Sons...only they *were* there.

Sucks...

Oh, now the picture is becoming clear.

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Sofia!...Turn!...Run!

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boomerang wrote:

Ummm.... Finn?

If you want to compare the SBVFT ads to MoveOn.com's ads you, or someone else, will need to start.

Unless an ad gernerates pounds of press like the Swift Boat ads or run their spots during "Dora The Explorer" chances are I haven't seen them.

Move.On.org's contest for anti-Bush ads made the national press as well as drawing a myriad of website hits. The content of these anti-Bush ads was at least as scurrilous as anything contended by the Swiftboaters.

If you want to argue that the Swiftboater ads have had more of an impact on the Kerry campaign than the $60 million in anti-Bush ads, I won't disagree, but if you are trying to draw any other meaningful distinction, I fail to see it.

Both have political motivation, both are aligned with (if not the actual campaigns) that major figures in the Republican and Democratic party circles, and both drive the other side nuts.

It is hypocritical for the Kerry Campaign to scream bloody murder and demand a condemnation from Bush when their candidate mocked the Bush campaign for complaining about Move.On.org et al, and called their threatened law suit frivolous.

What's food for the goose...

Now that Bush has publicly condemned these ads - all of them -will Kerry do so as well?

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Where were the moveon.org contest ads shown/seen/played? I haven't seen them on any of the U.S. channels I get. Now, since I dumped a lot of the mainstream U.S. networks from my satellite, it's quite possible I missed them. Just curious. Well that, and I'd like to see them (in the context of t.v. programming, not on my wonky little puter).

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ehBeth wrote:

Where were the moveon.org contest ads shown/seen/played? I haven't seen them on any of the U.S. channels I get. Now, since I dumped a lot of the mainstream U.S. networks from my satellite, it's quite possible I missed them. Just curious. Well that, and I'd like to see them (in the context of t.v. programming, not on my wonky little puter).

Hey, I can't help it if the Bush Haters wasted their $60 million on a wonky medium.

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And yes, Kerry did condemn the MoveOn ad calling Bush's service (or lack thereof) into question. Just a sec...

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I did hear about their contest but then never heard anything else about it. I've never seen any of their ads and I've never visited their website. I don't have a sound card in my computer so visiting anyones web site to view commercials would be pretty stupid on my part.

I also heard that some people were upset about the ads and I heard about all the controversy over the 527 ads in general.

But I can't comment on the content of their ads because I haven't seen them and they haven't generated any press.

Maybe the Swift Boat thing is generating so much press here in Oregon is that several local guys are involved in the debate - Rasmussen and French.

We have gotten some press about the new media matters ad - again its a local guy apprearing in it. Its the one with the General who said that he supported Bush in the last election but that he's supporting Kerry in this one.

I don't see anything "scurrilous" in that.

I think I've heard that MoveOn is affiliated with George Soros - but again, he's been up to this stuff for years so to say that its a direct attack against Bush doesn't hold a lot of water. A direct attack against republican policy in general, maybe....

I don't have any idea who Media Matters is affiliated with.

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sozobe wrote:

Hi BHF. 'tis.

Just saw this in the paper, wonder if this is what was really behind the ad, which was a little out of character IMO for MoveOn:

Quote:
Senator John Kerry denounced an advertisement by the liberal group MoveOn.org questioning President Bush's Vietnam-era service in the Air National Guard yesterday, a move likely to raise pressure on President Bush to condemn a recent commercial accusing Mr. Kerry of lying about his war record.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/18/politics/campaign/18ads.html

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=848951

And Finn, that was a contest -- the selected ad, "Child's Play", was hardly scurrilous.

When did Bush publically condemn the SBVFT ad? Specifically, I mean, not just negative yadda yadda, as specifically as Kerry condemned the MoveOn ad, above? I haven't seen that yet.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Hey, I can't help it if the Bush Haters wasted their $60 million on a wonky medium.

So, the ads weren't shown on a national network? Seriously?

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The winner was supposed to be shown during the Superbowl -- CBS (CBS?) refused. Remember that flap?

I think it was, eventually.

But the scurrilous ones, nope.

So yeah, kinda breaks down the parallel. Child's Play is the best parallel since it had a media flap that increased awareness. It was a bunch of kids doing various jobs -- the conceit was they will be paying off the debts we're incurring now.

Scurrilous.

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ehBeth wrote:

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Hey, I can't help it if the Bush Haters wasted their $60 million on a wonky medium.

So, the ads weren't shown on a national network? Seriously?

Frankly, I don't know. I do know that it has been reported by NPR (that vile Right Wing propaganda machine) that $60 million was spent on anti-Bush ads. It's hard to imagine that $60 million couldn't buy national air time, but then I haven't seen any of the Swiftboater ads on TV either (other than when played as part of a news story).

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boomerang wrote:

I did hear about their contest but then never heard anything else about it. I've never seen any of their ads and I've never visited their website. I don't have a sound card in my computer so visiting anyones web site to view commercials would be pretty stupid on my part.

I also heard that some people were upset about the ads and I heard about all the controversy over the 527 ads in general.

But I can't comment on the content of their ads because I haven't seen them and they haven't generated any press.

They generated plenty of press. Perhaps the coverage didn't register with you as sharply as the press on the Swiftboater ads.

Maybe the Swift Boat thing is generating so much press here in Oregon is that several local guys are involved in the debate - Rasmussen and French.

We have gotten some press about the new media matters ad - again its a local guy apprearing in it. Its the one with the General who said that he supported Bush in the last election but that he's supporting Kerry in this one.

I don't see anything "scurrilous" in that.

There isn't, but I assure you that that ad didn't cost $60 million

I think I've heard that MoveOn is affiliated with George Soros - but again, he's been up to this stuff for years so to say that its a direct attack against Bush doesn't hold a lot of water. A direct attack against republican policy in general, maybe....

This is, at best, a naieve statement.

Soros has called Bush "a danger to the world," and declared that removing him from office was the "central focus of my life."

This can hardly be described as an attack against Republican policy in general.

I don't have any idea who Media Matters is affiliated with.

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sozobe wrote:

sozobe wrote:
Hi BHF. 'tis.

Just saw this in the paper, wonder if this is what was really behind the ad, which was a little out of character IMO for MoveOn:

Quote:
Senator John Kerry denounced an advertisement by the liberal group MoveOn.org questioning President Bush's Vietnam-era service in the Air National Guard yesterday, a move likely to raise pressure on President Bush to condemn a recent commercial accusing Mr. Kerry of lying about his war record.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/18/politics/campaign/18ads.html

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=848951

And Finn, that was a contest -- the selected ad, "Child's Play", was hardly scurrilous.

When did Bush publicly condemn the SBVFT ad? Specifically, I mean, not just negative yadda yadda, as specifically as Kerry condemned the MoveOn ad, above? I haven't seen that yet.

So Kerry did condemn the Bush AWOL ads. I'm glad to see that. Bush was asked if he was specifically condemning the Swiftboater ads and he replied that he was. What more do you want?

Are you trying to tell us that Bush and the Republican Party are the only bad guys in this mess?

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Can you give me a link to that, Finn? Hadn't seen it. I'm happy about it.

And no, Finn, I'm not saying anything so black and white. I am specifically responding to your question:

Quote:

Now that Bush has publicly condemned these ads - all of them -will Kerry do so as well?

He did so well before Bush did. (And that's going by your say-so that Bush did at all, but I trust ya. Still would like to see a link -- trust but verify, ya know. ;-) )

As for the Soros stuff -- that's Soros, not MoveOn. Boomer asked for specifics to back up your comparison of SBVFT with MoveOn ads. Do you have any? So far we have non-MoveOn produced citizen entries that were seen only online, plus "Child's Play", which I believe saw airtime at some point. And the spot about Bush's service (or lack thereof) that Kerry quickly condemned. Anything else?

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Yep, that's Soros, not MoveOn. Admitedly, the 527s filled a hole that allowed them to ratchet up the rhetoric - on both sides. Still, I haven't seen anything proving that MoveOn's ads are lies and I've seen plentyof stuff that cast doubt on the truth of the SBVFT ads.

I really don't have any reason to lie about the amount of press given this. My paper today has a front page story, a full page "News Focus" story, an article about local vets calling for the resignation of French, several editorials and a reprint of the Rood piece.

And all this from the liberal rag that supported Bush in the last election - and may yet again support Bush.

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You're not looking hard enough if that's the case.

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So it should be easy for Finn (or you) to find examples...

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http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12553

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg09049.html

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2004/january/0106_moveon_bush_hitler.shtml

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200401070805.asp

http://www.gop.com/news/read.aspx?ID=3263

http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=5535

http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=151

http://www.americandaily.com/article/3502

Is that enough? There are plenty more if not...

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Sounds like a good list of objective sources, McG.

Here's my take on this whole controversy: As these posts suggest, those who already plan to vote for Bush think the Swift Boat group speaks the truth. And the opposite is true for those who support Kerry.

I hope the Swift Boat liars aren't convincing anyone in the middle, but I don't know for certain.

It's interesting, also, that now that the Swift Boat group has been making waves for weeks, Bush asks for an end to this kind of activity. Taking the high road (when it's convenient), as usual...

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Yeah, and MoveOn.org is an objective news source, right? You asked for sources that explain the lies that MoveOn.rog have told, and that's what those links do. Regardless of the source. Read through them and see what's going on.

Show me the "objective" news sources that show the SBV are lying...

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The politics of despair

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