The politics of despair

Just a friendly note, the language of the forum is standard English.

BTW I just posted proof that O'Neil worked for Nixon although he claimed he received no compensation.

Thank you all for joining the thread.

It seems that the SBVFT story is crumbling by the minute.

This morning's paper reports how many of the same men who appear in these ads were praising Kerry as late as 1998.

Judging by this unraveling story and the comments here regarding your suspicions I'm thinking that poitics has indeed reached a new low.

It is very depressing to feel so maniuplated.

This will only deepen the gloom.



http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=855784#855784

nimh says:
To me, those fellow vets of Kerry's, some of whom actually fiercely disagreed with him about his anti-war activities, some of whom have been registered Republicans for years, who still came out to testify of his heroism, carry more credibility if only just for that.

I agree. But now I'm really confused after finding out that several of the vets in this group praised Kerry's service just a few years ago.

Sozobe, I'm not so sure that these guys didn't set out to lie and decieve. The more I read, the more convinced I am that that is exactly what they set out to do.

Thanks dlowan, for giving us the Post articles.

squinney, your comments about the Abu Garhab (I'm not sure how to spell it either) are very interesting.

Did anyone read about the Oregon soldiers who photographed the Iraqi's beating up Iraqi prisoners? They (the Oregon national guardsmen) raided the compond to stop the abuse but were ordered to "stand down" by thier commanders.

It was a huge story locally but it didn't seem to get much national attention.

Thanks Harper, for tracking down the Nixon connection.

Hi paultnfz. Please join the debate. I would love to hear what you're thinking.

<sigh>

Consider the gloom deepened....

Do you think it logical to assume that someone who was wounded in such a way as to receive a Purple Heart should have spent at least a day in a hospital?

sofia, are you implying that military protocals are rational?

Where military protocols fail, the man's integrity should fill that void. IMO.

There are plenty of vets, who were put up for awards--and declined, saying they knew men who had suffered worse, and recieved no special award.

I keep thinking of recieving an award for pulling a man out of harm's way.

I wonder how many times this occurred. And how many thought doing that was as natural as breathing--and would seek no special award for it.

"integrity" and "military protocal" ae mutually exclusive and would reduce order and command structures immediately.

You do a good thing - save a man's life - you get an award. What could possibly be considered fishy about that? Why in heaven's name shouldn't you get an award when you save a man's life?

Lord, if someone put himself in harm's way for his country and risked his life for four months for a measly soldier's pay - if he wants at least a medal for his bravery, why would you want to begrudge him that, tell him he shouldn't have wanted one?

well, first off, Kerry was a junior grade officer which immediately leads me to thoughts mistrust.
secondly, it was far too common for junior (and senior grade) officers to get medals for damn near everything from showing up at mess on time to having matching boots at inspection. The military likes to take care of its own especially those wearing brass to begin with.

My husband told me everyone hated the JGs. Sort of Fortunate Sons...only they *were* there.

Sucks...

Kerry's medals don't matter to me, but if you're going to question his, you'll need to question everyone elses.

It sucks that they went, Sofia? Or that they were officers? Or that everyone hated them?

I don't know where all this "four months" comes from. Kerry served in the military from 1966 to 1970 - thats four years. He served as a swift boat commander for 4 months.

It is interesting to me to see that people seem to begrudge Kerry his education and training as if this makes him somehow less a soldier.

My brother has a batchelors degree and three masters degrees. He's been in the Army for 26 years. He has been in combat, but not for very long.

Judging by the comments here I would think that you would tag my brother with "unworthy" despite the fact that he has given his entire adult life in service to America.

Interesting. Very interesting.

Sucks--what dys said, boomerang. That those who went in with an education received special treatment over the other guys.

And, no, I don't have to question everyone else's medals or service, unless they put themselves on the national stage, howl to the moon about how great they were, and then a bunch of guys who served with them say they are lying about what they did.

I guess you are referring to the military guys begrudging Kerry's education. They are the ones who complain about the special treatment 'an education' merited those guys.

Your comment--
Judging by the comments here I would think that you would tag my brother with "unworthy" despite the fact that he has given his entire adult life in service to America.

--------
...only shows you judged my comments incorrectly. I can't imagine how you came to such a conclusion.

I didn't mean you, specifically, Sofia. I'm sorry if you took me that way.

We certainly weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths. We barely had spoons at all. The only way my brother could afford college was on an ROTC scholorship. Yeah he showed up and his boots were shined and he graduated an officer but nobody handed him anything on a platter.

But I do disagree with you about questioning everybody else's medals. Either there was a fair system for awarding them or there wasn't. Someone being on the national stage doesn't make any difference, in my opinion.

I really don't want to argue over these things, though.

some 1600 were listed as "fragged" while another 2500 were listed as "suspicious". having nothing to do with their education but rather their idiotic training and complete lack of knowledge about what the hell was going on. they put men's lives on the line as if they were back in the frat house playing checkers. I do, to this day, believe more US lives were lost due to JG decisions than due to enemy fire.
and that's the end of my rave.

This is interesting, because so many of Kerry's defenders are asserting that the Swift Boat charges are false because of documentation produced by military protocol.

The Swift Boaters are responding, in effect, that the documentation that "proves" Kerry was a hero was typical military protocol BS.

I never served myself, but I have read "Catch-22," and I find it plausible that the various written citations were military BS. However, unless someone can offer more concrete evidence that Kerry manufactured his medals, I have to conclude he deserved them. Otherwise it's simply believeing what one wants to believe.

Re: The politics of despair


You know, you don't really get to tell everyone what they can and cannot argue.

But lets go along with your prohibition. I won't compare them to Moore or Soros (even though I don't understand how length of time has any relevance), but let's compare them to MoveOn.com.

Okay.....

Have at it.

Ummm.... Finn?

If you want to compare the SBVFT ads to MoveOn.com's ads you, or someone else, will need to start.

Unless an ad gernerates pounds of press like the Swift Boat ads or run their spots during "Dora The Explorer" chances are I haven't seen them.