What does that make me?

That's the slapster I know!

Hey man - I have had my differences with you, and I think I have taken a few shots I didn't really deserve, but if you will restrain yourself from targeting my behind with the boot leather of your wit, I'll do likewise.

My opinion of you, insignificant as it may be, has actually morphed as I've been allowed to see a person who is interested in more than just appreciation of his humor.

I don't "target" anyone in particular.

I'm an E.O.I:
"Equal Opportunity Insulter."

Now, how are we gonna start a whole new enlightened relationship, if you are in denial?

Wilso
You questioning yourself only means that you're a good person ;-)

I'm feel certain that Jane Fonda, Cullen Powell, and Oprah Winfrey do not consider themselves racists. I also feel certain that they do not live in unsafe neighborhoods. They probably have top-of-the-line security systems, too.

"Good fences make good neighbors," whoever you live next door to.

The pertinent question has gone unanswered: would you have bought if the residents had been predominantly Aboriginal and the houses and yards well-kempt (however unlikely, for whatever reasons you might cite, that might be)?

I suspect everyone has thoughts they'd rather not have. It's whether and/or how those are acted upon that matter. (After all, we're only 2% different than a chimp. You can't expect us to be reasonable all the time.)

Yup, yup.

Yes, I would have considered buying if the current residents were caring for their properties. Unfortunately there are many (of all races) who don't care for that which they didn't have to pay for.

Wilso, To immediately assume that living in the neighborhood of any minority is 'undesireable' is racist on the face of it. We live in Silicon Valley in California, where the homes in our area averages almost $500,000. We have neighbors on some close streets with weeds growing in their yards, and the home owners are white. Fortunately for us, the crime rate in our city is one of the lowest in the US for populations of 100,000 or more. When we looked for homes when we moved, my first and foremost concern was the quality of schools for our kids - not who lived in the neighborhood. When we first moved here about thirty years ago, we were the first Asian family. Now, the majority on our street is Asian. Funny things do happen. c.i.

Best statement I've read today, patiodog. Might I add that my real fear is of those who have no self doubts and questions, whether they voice them or not?

Hey, Wilso. The INPORTANT thing is not that WE believe you'd move into a well kempt neighborhood solely populated by Australian Aborigines, but that YOU believe it. And you've already told us YOU believe it.

We sold our house in a suburb that was pretty much all the same, and moved into an apartment where the population is very mixed. There was no deliberate thinking on it - we had to make a quick decision, the apartment was good (I'd always lived in a house before), and the neighborhood was convenient and clean. In the four years we've been here, I've had friendlier and more caring neighbors that I had before, and I'm very comfortable here.

However, I think that when you're deciding where to live with children, when you have to think about schools, transportation, after school activities, house upkeep, your thinking has to be more practical, and more focused on what may come, as well as whatever is there, because quite often children make the important difference.

I grew up in the middle of a big city, so perhaps I look at where I live a little differently. Growing up I usually walked on concrete, not grass. Of course, this did make roller skating and biking easier.

I still can't figure out why the realtor was
SO STUPID as to take you to see an area
of housing where:
a) you wouldn't fit in
b) crime was rampant
c) property values were declining
BECAUSE, the goal of being an agent is to
make money. Why sell you a cheap piece
of junk - in crack town, when she could
have really socked it to you by over
charging you on a terrific looking home
that's terribly overpriced only due to its
proximity to other wealthy homes near
the golf course.
I know this is annoyingly out of line with
the essence of your question, so I'll comply
briefly.
You could very well have bought that home
in that downtrodden neighborhood, and been
an example for all your neighbors by fixing
your house up, painting, repairing, new windows
making it look new & beautiful. Then offering to
help your neighbors learn how to do the same and
all of you could go in together on a "group deal" for
a home alarm company and establish a very serious
Community Watch Program.
In Utopia this would be called serious community
service.
But, I guess in the real world, this would be called
dreaming and just plain stupid.

babs, Your comments that sounds like a snide remark rings true. c.i.

Hmm ... OK, as I understand it, if we're really going to take the "case against Wilso" seriously, as he more or less asked us - Wilso had basically said three things:

the street was populated mostly or only by Aboriginals;
the street was in a bad state;
that the street was in a bad state was b/c it was populated by Aboriginals.

As a reason not to move in there, the second, all here agree, is noooo problem.

On the third, there's a bit of a problem. At first, it seemed that Wilso drew the conclusion that the street was a 'bad' one solely from the observation that it was populated by Aboriginals. Ie.: I see only Aboriginals, so it has to be a bad street. That, of course, is indeed text book racism - leaving aside here to what extent that makes the whole thing disapprovable (I tend to shrug at it - it's not like anyone ended up harmed or even personally insulted. It's only in the collective - thousands doing likewise - that a problem emerges, the problem of ghettoisation).

In second instance, it turned out the observation of the street being "bad" was based on all kinds of concrete proof, not just seeing Aboriginals around, so that made the observation itself fine, too. Which just left the Q of why bring up the Aboriginals in the first place? - if he hadn't, noone'd have raised an eyebrow.

Compliments therefore to Wilso for being honest. Cause it would've been all too easy to duck the whole issue from the start by saying from the beginning on that the choice not to buy a house there had 'nothing to do with the coincidence of Aboriginals living there, no nothing of course, it was the unkempt lawns that did it!' - one of the ways in which everyday racism, instead of dissappearing, has simply gone hidden in PC hipocrisy.

I'm sure that in fact, both things played a role. The street didn't look good, and only Aboriginals seemed to live there. Making an automatic equation between the two might be wrong, but why wouldn't both those things be good reason not to want to live there?

People want to live with other people they feel at ease with. Down here I live in a pretty diverse neighbourhood. Inhabitants are in majority white, I think, though not in overwhelming majority - and, this being downtown (coupla coffeeshops around and stuff), with the people who hang out round here, the street scene is definitely multicultural. I wouldn't want it another way. I wouldn't want to live in a neighbourhood populated exclusively by "upmarket white executives types" - or in a street exclusively populated by white people, period. And in much the same way, I wouldn't want to live in a street only inhabited by Moroccans, or by Surinamese - or in any street where I'd be the only white person, period. Although I'm not quite sure whether I'd want to live in a street full of people like me - I think that would be a rather scary thought, actually - deep down I do simply want to blend in (hard for me as that may be) - and thus I need to be in a diverse neighbourhood.

I think it's perfectly valid for somebody to say he doesn't want to live in a street with people who are all different than him. I think clustering with people you consider 'your own' is a natural thing, if not necessarily a good thing. And somewhere I feel that if people weren't made to feel guilty about wanting to live with people like them - even if that is with other WASPs or Hindustanis rather than other rich people or young hipsters - they wouldn't feel obliged to come up with the more truly offensive stuff, like that the reason they don't want to live with Blacks is not because they don't like Blacks but because, you know, they've got children, safety issues and all, crime, you know how it is with Black neighbourhoods and crime rates, et cetera.

Wonder what y'all think of that angle.

nimh, I had to chuckle after reading your post, because I'm a minority in the US, and it's never occured to me that in buying a home for my family, I had to worry about 'where' we bought our home. We purchased our first home in Fremont, California, back in the early sixties, when I was still attending college. We were able to buy a new home, because my wife had worked as a nurse for several years, and saved up $8,000. When we had our first child when we lived in an apartment building in Oakland, they didn't allow infants, so we looked for our own home. We chose a new development in Fremont, and bought the cheapest home at $20,000. After we lived there about five years, we moved to Naperville, Illinois, because of my promotion with Florsheim Shoe Company. We bought a new home there in a relatively new development. It was a beautiful brick and cedar, two story home with a basement. We chose the lot, and saw the home being built. It was never a consideration of "who the neighbors were." A friend of mine recommended Naperville, because they had a good school district, and we had two young sons. When we returned to California, we bought our home in Sunnyvale, because my wife's parents lived here. We bought our first 'old' home, and selected this one on the basis of the floor plan, and not because we knew who the neighbors were. Since we moved here over thirty years ago, we were the only minority in this neighborhood. Most of our old neighbors have since then moved away, and over 90 percent of the people living on our street are all 'new.' Many are Asians like us. Most of our neighbors work for the high tech industry, and the neighbor to our south came from Hawaii. They both have PhD's in engineering, but the wife 'works' as a housewife with four children. Our neighbor to the north came from the UK, and both of them also have PhD's. The wife does not have outside employment, and takes care of the daughter. Our neighbor across the street from us is a realtor, and owns several properties. She lives with her sister and two dogs. Racial issues and filth were never a consideration when we looked for a home, and I do not believe it will be in the future. c.i.

I grew up in the poorest neighborhoods - mostly populated with mixed races. In the late 40s and 50s in those parts of California we (my siblings and I) had few race caused run ins with others. Years later, when I was a parent of four children in Houston, our neighborhood began to be populated by people who did not discipline their children and in fact some of them appeared to be urging the kids to misbehave in certain ways. I had problems with at different times three or four white families, but most of them moved away in time. I also had problems with the same number of black families' children. One black child had it in for my daughter and tried to put her head in a toilet at school. Finally we moved to the outer reaches of the Houston area. Most of the children we saw from then on were white. But these kids had a high percentage of drug users among them. They had no respect for adults. Although my kids have grown and are now doing fine, I can see that moving to a mostly white area did not particularly improve their lot in life.

This is very interesting. So much of the decisions are based on how honest you are with yourself. I think it's true that most of us are most comfortable when we flock together. And why not? This is what animals and birds do.

I grew up inner city, and got used to it early, but everybody is a minority somewhere, And I do think the issues of school, after school, neighborhood social life, shopping, etc are important, because that is where we live our lives.

But babs brought up a strong point. A good agent wants to sell the house, so why show that to you in the first place? Or did you change your specs later? And then again, Wilso, maybe you've come to the time when you are questioning just how you really feel, and maybe not liking some of it. If that's so, then I suggest you shuck some of the guilt. In the end, honesty is best, and quite often leads to an acceptance of who you truly are. Which, quite often, is not as bad as who you were afraid yyou were.

Observation; not! criticism;
Wilso; I can see from your eloquent postings, that you have an "ordered" mind. Perhaps you should try a little "disorder" in your life. Your reasons for not buying were all mainstream - logic/economics oriented ones, not likely to increase your life experiences in the "humanities" (which is, after all, all that really matters).

The observations you make, which are probably quite accurate, are the way they are "because" you (and all the others in your situation) made that decision; if the facts are ever to change, attitudes must change, and yes, some people are going to have to accept the short term "rough" situation to bring equality to the whole.

Not necessarily you!

Before any realtor takes you on house inspections, they usually know what price range of home you can afford. It seems to me that Wilso's broker did not do his fundamental job of knowing the basics before even beginning to look for a home. I would have changed the realtor very quickly - indeed. c.i.