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Dispatches From DC?

 
 
blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 11:13 am
roger, that's a seemingly reasonable question, but you can't have it both ways. Either Hussein has WMDs and we need to prevent their use, which would probably be a reasonable response (assuming there's evidence of their actual existence), or he doesn't have them, in which case (since that would put Iraq in compliance with the UN mandate), what the heck are we doing there? Plenty of other countries, many of them led by dictatorial maniacs, don't have WMDs but "might" in the future. Will we be expending billions of dollars and untold lives to invade them, too?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 11:19 am
What I don't understand is why people are so eager to go to war. Why can't people wait until WMD's are found? If it takes the next 20 - 25 years, we can hope the Saddam is no longer alive. What's so bad about that? In the mean time, there's no way for him to threaten anybody. c.i.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 11:26 am
I don't think seemingly is the word as I'm not trying to have it both ways. Specifically refering to nuclear weapons, Saddam has them under developement, or so we've been led to believe. The time to stop the program is before it is complete. Developing such weapons is sufficient provocation. Remember, developement of nuclear weapons is as great a compliance issue as having them. Just easier to deal with.
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blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 11:54 am
Good point, and I agree completely, c.i.

roger, I'm not sure we can prove that he's been trying to develop nukes, at least since the Gulf War. I seem to recall that the aluminum tube story (supposedly the Iraqis were trying to obtain them to build a sophisticated centifuge to separate uranium or somesuch) was a dead end. Testimony of the defector who was supposed to be a top guy in the field there (and whose name escapes me-- Hamza, maybe?) was also problematic because he apparently was not exactly what he represented himself to be. I've seen a report from a former Iraqi nuclear scientist now residing in Canada in which he states that Iraq no longer possesses the technical capabilities or infrastructure to develop nuclear weapons.
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blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 12:03 pm
By sheer coincidence, I was perusing MSNBC and one of their top stories was about the aluminum tubes. See http://www.msnbc.com/news/863567.asp?0cv=CB10
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 12:08 pm
You could be right, blacksmithn. I don't believe so, but don't want to spend half a day dredging up old links which may or may not have been discredited as you say the 'aluminum tube story' has been.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 12:08 pm
blacksmithn wrote:
timber- You seem to confuse "support for a Totalitarian Right Wing Dictatorship" with a lack of support for sending young Americans to die in a foreign land for specious reasons. One does not equate to the other.

I think it not myself who confuses issues ... Refusing to commit our resources in the pursuit of liberty and security is an abrogation of our moral responsibility IMO.

Quote:
As to who poses the greater threat for WMD use, it's no secret Pakistan was poised to use nukes against Indian troop concentrations in this latest crisis over Kashmir

Pakistan rattled its nuclear sword, but made no effort to bring nuclear-capable assets to readiness. They said "They were ready and willing", not "Here we go"


Quote:
Saddam on the other hand, has at least been quiescent on that score since the Gulf War, possibly because he has none or possibly due to the effective implementation of the policy of containment.

A few thousand assorted Iraqi Ethinic Minorities would argue that point rather strongly ... if they weren't dead.

Quote:
Whether Kim Jong Il or Saddam Hussein is the greater maniac is to some extent a judgement call, but Kim apparently HAS actual nukes while Saddam even in a worst case scenario won't have them for some time. While it's true that Saddam gassed rebellious Kurdish civilians at Halabja in 1988, resulting in some 5-8 thousand deaths, Kim reduced his entire populace to starvation, resulting in approximately 2 million deaths.

Saddam has used WMD and openly refuses to renounce their use. DPRK, despite an odd-to-Western-view negotiating stance, is talking. Iraq is not.

Quote:
It is not untoward to wonder at the apparent discrepancy between the administration's bellicose reaction to Iraq, their rather reticent reaction to North Korea and their outright embrace of erstwhile ally Pakistan. That Iraq sits on a vast pool of oil and North Korea and Pakistan do not, is one quite obvious explanation for this, particularly in view of the current administration's close ties to the petroleum industry and pre-9/11 indications that an Iraqi "regime change" was desirable.


Oh, it IS about OIL, alright ... but not US Oil. The French and The Russians have significant financial interest in Iraqi oil. The US does not.
I do not believe there is any reason to doubt the Administration assertion that "The Iraqi Oil is to be held in trust for The Iraqi People". Skepticism is healthy ... cynicism often fuels itself, and is an intellectually bankrupt pursuit. There is nothing simplistic about The World Situation at all.

That's the way I see it, anyway. Others may see things in any manner they wish. One thing I wish to note is that it is the soldier who secures the right of the protester to wave his banners and shout his slogans. The soldier's job is at once more difficult, and generally unacknowledged.

(edited to correct careless, easily noticed misspellings. Some of them, anyway. Gotta learn to use "Preview")

timber
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blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 12:36 pm
timber, maybe we can agree to disagree. There certainly seem to be ample points in this debate at which reasonable minds can differ. I would like to thank you, however, for your civil tone and thoughtful (although to my mind wrongheaded, as I'm sure my position would be to you) responses. One thing we can agree on, as you put it, there is nothing simple about the World Situation!

roger, the same goes for you. Thanks.
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blacksmithn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 01:04 pm
In yet ANOTHER coincidence (I swear, I haven't been looking for these things) here's a piece about the impending report of the IAEA inspectors (the ones looking for nukes, as opposed to the inspectors looking for chem/bio weapons led by Blix), in which they indicate that Iraq has been fairly cooperative. See

http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20030124/D7OONUK05.html
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 01:24 pm
blacksmithn, it is quite agreeable to agreeably disagree with reasonable folks. I respect your position and your support of it.
I have no quarell with you ... I merely have and espouse a different opinion. That's cool. And thank you for taking the effort to exersize the restraint, reason, and respect which are the means by which discussion is carried forward. Dialogue is a treasure. Diatribe is dross.

Oh, to your last article, I submit:

Quote:
But ElBaradei also will say that the Iraqis "need to help themselves by coming forward" with evidence rather than waiting for the inspectors to sniff it out.

He said the IAEA chief also would make a case for additional pressure on Baghdad to encourage Iraqi scientists to consent to private interviews with the U.N. inspectors. So far, the scientists have refused.

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said Thursday that "we know from multiple sources that Saddam has ordered that any scientists who cooperate during interviews will be killed, as well as their families."


They get a "Passing Grade" for this? I'd give it an "Incomplete" at best. Seems like a pretty permissive grading curve is being employed. Things were tougher when I was in school.



timber
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 01:28 pm
http://www.msnbc.com/news/842500.asp?vts=012420031120
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 01:29 pm
Quote:
Quote:
"It should be noted," Fleischer said, "that the attempted acquisition of such tubes is prohibited under the United Nations resolutions in any case." U.N. sanctions restrict Iraq's ability to import "dual-use" items that potentially could be used for weapons.


What part of "Prohibited" is hard to understand?

timber


strawman logic
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 01:55 pm
lol ... Bill ... lets decide to keep this particular interpersonal discussion to one thread or the other ... I thought I was having page-loading problems, or had perhaps misplaced a reply Laughing

I just don't see "straw man" here, as I mentioned in that other thread.



timber
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Jan, 2003 02:18 pm
timber, I agree, I get problems w/cross linking my mind also - for anyone who wishes to see the reply:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=83039#83039

page 119, 9th reply (as long as nothing changes in the thread)
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jimnass
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2003 12:08 pm
Well, it's 4 months later...
Well here we are, 4 months later and still no answers to my many questions! NeoGuin, i do hope your car is finally running Smile

But the facts are clear, over 35 countries are supporting the international coalition of the willing to disarm saddam hussein - not one country disagrees that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction, Hans Blix admits it also, yet some countries refuse to go along with their own vote on resolutiuon 1441 of 4 months ago!

Well, thanks to the coalition led by the United states, Iraq will soon be free!

Also, as back in the fall, the extremist backed and financed "anti-war" rallies remain small in the United States of America. The other day, a few hundred joined Ramsey Clark in Union Square, in NY. the fact is that 70% of America supports the President and the United States in the disarmament and liberation of Iraq, and teh related protection of this nation and the world!!
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Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2003 12:41 pm
Where do you get those nifty statistics? Fox News? NewsMax? Rush Limbaugh? I think you are very sadly misguided. Your stats are horse "patoot!"
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NeoGuin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2003 12:49 pm
Jimnass:

Well my new(er) car, a Matador Red 1999 Ford Taurus is running fine--I kinda nicked it up a bit clearing from the blizzard of '03, but a bit of scratch cover took car of that.

I kinda forgot about you questions, but I will get to them.

Also, those 35 countries are fine, but that leaves about 190 undeicided!

Also, what happens when we have to "Pay Off" all those countries:)

KEEP THE FAITH
http://www.unitedforpeace.org
http://www.moveon.org
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Mar, 2003 12:56 pm
How much support in men and material are we getting from these supporters? Better still how much will we have to pay for this so-called support?
Aside from Briton and Australia we have no real support.
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jimnass
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 09:54 am
Viet,

if you are asking about the statistics regarding the number of nations in the coalition of the willing - i saw theh report on reuters, though the sites you mentioned are all great ones too.

by the way, the number is now over 40 according to most every news channel today!

Any other questions? Smile
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jimnass
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 09:57 am
Neo, glad to hear the newer car is doing fine! Cant wait to have the discussion your promised!

As for the 190 nations who are "undecided", well, i seriously doubt that silence means support for Saddam, do you?
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