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A question for the Kerry supporters

 
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 07:56 pm
I admire Kerry for volunteering to go to Vietnam. Everyone who served there ought to be treated as a hero. My objections to Bush, however, have nothing to do with his lack of service in Vietnam.

It's his record as president that I deplore. It's his alignment with right-wing extremists militarily, economically, socially. It's the alienation he has generated within the world community because of his arrogance. It's his lack of judgment in pursuing a needless war in Iraq (for who knows what reason), and allowing terrorists to gain a stronger foothold almost everywhere. It's his tax cuts, his underfunding of No Child Left Behind, his opposition to embryonic stem cell research, his repeated nominations to the courts of dangerous extremists, his insistence on supporting an attempt to write discrimination into the constitution, his lack of vision and humility and wisdom.

It's him. It's just him. I love my country and I am infuriated by the directions in which he has taken us, domestically and internationally. I love my fellow Americans, and I am sickened that, in spite of the closeness and unity we all felt after 911, his policies since then have left us so bitterly divided. Bush no longer has any credibility here at home or in the world community. He can no longer lead. He has to go.

Kerry may not be perfect, but he's not Bush and for that reason, as well as the ones I have given above, he will get my vote.
0 Replies
 
TheTruth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 09:12 pm
angie wrote:
I admire Kerry for volunteering to go to Vietnam. Everyone who served there ought to be treated as a hero. My objections to Bush, however, have nothing to do with his lack of service in Vietnam.

I do as well. My support for Bush and dislike of Kerry also has nothing to do with vietnam. It's the Kerry camp that made it the issue because as i've said before, the main issue in this election is the war which Kerry voted for and still defends knowing what he knows now. From his point of view, why trash the president on a war he agree's with? Personally, I would LOVE to put all this nam stuff in the past. Where Clinton, Kerry, Bush, Edwards, and Cheney were during nam is irrelevant to me. I bring it up because they bring it up. The reason they bring it up is because of how close their opinions on the war are and he doesn't want today's issues to lose him votes, so he go's back 40 years to find his shinning moment. I hope Kerry knows he is the "Anybody But Bush" candidate and not a strong political candidate, take away problems in Iraq, Bush wins. This will be very close because he isn't Bush, not because he's a great politician.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 09:18 pm
Kerry has opened the door for scrutiny of his service in Vietnam by placing such an emphasis on it in his campaign.

I find it compelling that the men that actually served on his boat hold him in high esteem.

I don't think, however, that this precludes the charges of those criticizing him from having validity.

No matter how one slices it, Kerry volunteered to serve in the military during a time of war, and he served in combat. He deserves kudos for this. Does he deserve to be President for this?

I consider his service to be a check in the Kerry plus column, but there's a lot more to being President that having served with distinction in a war.

Otherwise, Bob Dole wouldn't have lost to a draft dodger, the same draft dodger who beat out a Medal of Honor winner in the 92 Democratic primaries and then a decorated WWII pilot for the presidency.

And before the peanut gallery explodes, this is not an attempt to bring the sins of Bill Clinton into the discussion. He simply provides the best example, in recent memory, of the lack of importance of military service in a presidential campaign. (Bush beating out McCain in the 2000 GOP primaries is a pretty good one too.)
0 Replies
 
TheTruth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 09:40 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Kerry has opened the door for scrutiny of his service in Vietnam by placing such an emphasis on it in his campaign.

I find it compelling that the men that actually served on his boat hold him in high esteem.

I don't think, however, that this precludes the charges of those criticizing him from having validity.

No matter how one slices it, Kerry volunteered to serve in the military during a time of war, and he served in combat. He deserves kudos for this. Does he deserve to be President for this?

I consider his service to be a check in the Kerry plus column, but there's a lot more to being President that having served with distinction in a war.

Otherwise, Bob Dole wouldn't have lost to a draft dodger, the same draft dodger who beat out a Medal of Honor winner in the 92 Democratic primaries and then a decorated WWII pilot for the presidency.

And before the peanut gallery explodes, this is not an attempt to bring the sins of Bill Clinton into the discussion. He simply provides the best example, in recent memory, of the lack of importance of military service in a presidential campaign. (Bush beating out McCain in the 2000 GOP primaries is a pretty good one too.)

I am glad somebody that isn't high articulated that like I couldn't. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Aug, 2004 09:44 pm
Quote:
It's his record as president that I deplore. It's his alignment with right-wing extremists militarily, economically, socially.


Care to explain who these groups are? I don't know which right wing military group he has aligned with is.

Quote:
It's the alienation he has generated within the world community because of his arrogance.


So because we alienated France, Germany and maybe Russia that is the world? How about the 30 plus countries that do support us. Countries like Australia, the Philippians, South Korea and most of the old Eastern block countries. Don't they count for something, or are they no bodies because they aren't snooty and stuck up, talk about arrogance. Who is France and Germany to say they are the world?

Quote:
It's his lack of judgment in pursuing a needless war in Iraq (for who knows what reason), and allowing terrorists to gain a stronger foothold almost everywhere.


I guess you would prefer that Saddam still be in power? Kerry has stated himself that he would have still gone to war with what we know now. How does that make him different from Bush? I know Kerry would bend over and kiss Frances ass, that's why. I guess you have forgotten that France said they would oppose going into Iraq under any reason. No matter what we could have done France wasn't going to support the US. They were protecting their oil investments in Iraq and the person who know they were on the take in the Oil for Scam project.

Quote:
It's his tax cuts


I don't know about you but I like the check I got, and I like the fact that I get a larger deduction for having my children.

Quote:
, his underfunding of No Child Left Behind


I thought people like you didn't like the idea of No Child left behind. That whole issue with making teachers responsible for their students failing. From what I know he has thrown more money at a broken system that the teachers unions didn't like in the first place. He increased spending on schools more then Clinton.

Quote:
his opposition to embryonic stem cell research


He has taken a moral stand on research because of the abortion issue. It hasn't stopped the research it has put a limit on the amount of federal money that goes into the research. Private companies can do as much research on stem cells as they want it just won't be done with federal money. I would rather see the money go to fighting cancer and AIDS.

Quote:
his repeated nominations to the courts of dangerous extremists


Care to voice who these "dangerous extremists" are? They might not have had a positive view on abortion but there is nothing they can do to stop abortion. It is no different then some of the extremists judges that sit on the bench now, except that the extremist judges that sit on the bench now are left wing.

Quote:
his insistence on supporting an attempt to write discrimination into the constitution


He is only doing what he thinks is right and what the majority of Americans want.

Quote:
his lack of vision and humility and wisdom


Please explain this lack of vision and humility and wisdom. If you refer to his not wanting to deal with the UN on certain issues, I'm happy he hasn't. I don't want my military career to be run by a foreign military commander. Or my country to be told what to do. When you are the big dog on the block you have a certain amount of pull and I don't want to give that up.
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 08:19 am
above "the main issue in this election is the war (Iraq)"

and

"I consider his service to be a check in the Kerry plus column"

Ok. The reason the Kerry "camp" has so emphasized his Vietnam record is quite simply that the Bush camp tried to paint him as a "soft" type regarding defense. Kerry's politics may differ from Bush's (thankfully, IMO), but he is not "soft". I think America now knows that.


His service is a check in his plus column, no more, no less, a check that Bush, among others, cannot write in.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 10:16 am
Angie Wrote:
Quote:
It's his record as president that I deplore. It's his alignment with right-wing extremists militarily, economically, socially. It's the alienation he has generated within the world community because of his arrogance. It's his lack of judgment in pursuing a needless war in Iraq (for who knows what reason), and allowing terrorists to gain a stronger foothold almost everywhere. It's his tax cuts, his underfunding of No Child Left Behind, his opposition to embryonic stem cell research, his repeated nominations to the courts of dangerous extremists, his insistence on supporting an attempt to write discrimination into the constitution, his lack of vision and humility and wisdom.

It's him. It's just him. I love my country and I am infuriated by the directions in which he has taken us, domestically and internationally. I love my fellow Americans, and I am sickened that, in spite of the closeness and unity we all felt after 911, his policies since then have left us so bitterly divided. Bush no longer has any credibility here at home or in the world community. He can no longer lead. He has to go.


Beautiful roundup Angie! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 10:25 am
Angie
Well said. This Is not a one issue election. It is and should be based upon the failed presidency of G.W.Bush.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 10:27 am
I would point out that with more than 200 nations in the world, 30 members of the "coalition of the willing" (read: the coalition of those looking out for their main chance) are not a significant fraction.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 10:32 am
BBB
The anti-Kerry swift boat guys are not mad at Kerry primarily because of his medals, his command talent, etc. They are made at Kerry because, when he came home from Vietnam, he testified before Congress on what he knew and observed in Vietnam. But they choose to attack Kerry's integrity and record because they cannot attack the facts about which Kerry testified.

Later congressional investigations, books by historians, and military courts marshall have confirmed Kerry's testimony. So the only smear tactic that remained was to besmirch Kerry's reputation as an officer and a wounded veteran. Very noble, don't you think?

bbb
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 11:52 am
The Bush Administration's "Chicken Hawk Brigade"
The Bush Administration's "Chicken Hawk Brigade":

http://www.nhgazette.com/cgi-bin/NHGstore.cgi?user_action=list&category=%20NEWS%3B%20Chickenhawks%3BBureaucratic%20Battalion
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 11:59 am
I wasn't aware that military service was required for a position in government. Nor was it required to bring a country to war.

Have you given an equal treatment to Clinton's coop? I think you will find an equal amount of "chickenhawks" there.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 12:27 pm
Janet Reno - link No Vietnam service.

Daniel Glickman link No Vietnam service

Madeline Albright link No Vietnam service

Robert Rubin link No Vietnam service

William J. Perry link No Vietnam service

William S. Cohen link No Vietnam service

Bruce Babbitt link No Vietnam service

Robert Reich link No Vietnam service

The list goes on, but I think you get the point.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 01:30 pm
McGentrix wrote:
William S. Cohen link No Vietnam service
...
The list goes on, but I think you get the point.

In his eagerness to identify the Clinton administration's "chickenhawks," McG seems to have forgotten one thing: William Cohen is a Republican.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 01:39 pm
Baldimo wrote:
Bush has never had his service in Vietnam a piece of his election or even his relection campain. I don't judge him on that because he doesn't use it.

Add this to the list of "Things I Never Thought I'd See Anyone Ever Seriously Assert."
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 01:44 pm
Joe, It doesn't matter to me what party they follow. Cohen was a part of Clinton's cabinet, a coop just as deficient of vietnam veterans as the current one and most likely the next one.

It irritates me when people post links to lists like BBB's. As if it means anything.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 02:18 pm
Re: BBB
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
The anti-Kerry swift boat guys are not mad at Kerry primarily because of his medals, his command talent, etc. They are made at Kerry because, when he came home from Vietnam, he testified before Congress on what he knew and observed in Vietnam. But they choose to attack Kerry's integrity and record because they cannot attack the facts about which Kerry testified.

Later congressional investigations, books by historians, and military courts marshall have confirmed Kerry's testimony. So the only smear tactic that remained was to besmirch Kerry's reputation as an officer and a wounded veteran. Very noble, don't you think?

bbb


Are you really saying that the amount of war crimes that took place has been documented? I would like to see this proof. From what I have seen there were no such crimes that took place in the swift boat commands that Kerry and his "band of brothers" served in. While Kerry has made these charges there was never anyone who testified with him that signed any type of affidavit confirming that these events took place. Why has no one signed an affidavit this effect?

It isn't a smear tactic when you have this many people coming forward saying that Kerry isn't telling the truth. They have already exposed his lie about being in Cambodia on Christmas in 69 and now they have changed the story 3 separate times to try and show Kerry was some place that he wasn't. I would say this is just the beginning. Kerry will be exposed as the man he is and you will still defend him.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 02:21 pm
Baldimo, the Kerry sheeple will never believe anything that might tilt the halo over Kerry's head. It doesn't matter how many lies prop it up or how many facts you use to show that it's fake.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 03:58 pm
Re: The Bush Administration's "Chicken Hawk Brigade&quo



BBB,
I noticed you ignored this list,,,How come?
Do you not like what it has to say?
Does it shoot holes in your theory?

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld
Born in Chicago, Illinois, in 1932, he attended Princeton University on scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator.


Biography of Secretary Tom Ridge
Secretary of Homeland Security
After his first year at The Dickinson School of Law, he was drafted into the U.S. Army, where he served as an infantry staff sergeant in Vietnam, earning the Bronze Star for Valor.

Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony Principi
Mr. Principi is a 1967 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy at Annapolis, Md., and first saw active duty aboard the destroyer USS Joseph P. Kennedy. He later commanded a River Patrol Unit in Vietnam's Mekong Delta.

( I believe that would make him qualified to comment on Kerry's record)

Secretary of Transportation Norman Y. Mineta
After graduating from the University of California at Berkeley, Mineta joined the Army in 1953 and served as an intelligence officer in Japan and Korea.

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell
Secretary Powell was a professional soldier for 35 years, during which time he held myriad command and staff positions and rose to the rank of 4-star General. His last assignment, from October 1, 1989 to September 30, 1993, was as the 12th Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the highest military position in the Department of Defense. During this time, he oversaw 28 crises, including Operation Desert Storm in the victorious 1991 Persian Gulf war.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 04:41 pm
Re: BBB
Baldimo wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
The anti-Kerry swift boat guys are not mad at Kerry primarily because of his medals, his command talent, etc. They are made at Kerry because, when he came home from Vietnam, he testified before Congress on what he knew and observed in Vietnam. But they choose to attack Kerry's integrity and record because they cannot attack the facts about which Kerry testified.

Later congressional investigations, books by historians, and military courts marshall have confirmed Kerry's testimony. So the only smear tactic that remained was to besmirch Kerry's reputation as an officer and a wounded veteran. Very noble, don't you think?

bbb


Are you really saying that the amount of war crimes that took place has been documented? I would like to see this proof. From what I have seen there were no such crimes that took place in the swift boat commands that Kerry and his "band of brothers" served in. While Kerry has made these charges there was never anyone who testified with him that signed any type of affidavit confirming that these events took place. Why has no one signed an affidavit this effect?

It isn't a smear tactic when you have this many people coming forward saying that Kerry isn't telling the truth. They have already exposed his lie about being in Cambodia on Christmas in 69 and now they have changed the story 3 separate times to try and show Kerry was some place that he wasn't. I would say this is just the beginning. Kerry will be exposed as the man he is and you will still defend him.


I find the fact that none of these vets who support him are "allowed" to speak to the press without permission from the Kerry campaign to be very troubling. Question
0 Replies
 
 

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