0
   

Finny aint goin down easy. It's a cover-up, I tellya!

 
 
layman
 
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2016 10:44 pm
Well, the Bundy thread done got closed, but this aint over. There's gunna be some civil suit ACTION now, eh? The commies aint gunna like this:

Quote:
The family of Robert "LaVoy" Finicum, through it's attorney, issued a statement calling the shooting death of the refuge occupier unjustified and accusing the FBI and Oregon State Police of a cover-up.

Based on the video and two eyewitness accounts, the statement said, "what we believe the video shows is that LaVoy was being fired upon before he even got out of the truck." The family commissioned its own autopsy on Finicum that was completed over the weekend, according to a family member.

The FBI has been unwilling to release details of exactly how many times and where Finicum was shot. "We believe he had already been shot before he ever lowered his hands," the statement continued. "We believe some of his hand movements were a natural reflex to being shot."

The family contends that the FBI released a grainy, edited video without audio in an attempt to "sway public opinion from the outset." Finicum's family called on the FBI to release all audio recordings from the shooting...They also requested all unedited video taken by drones, body cameras and dash cameras as well as close-up images of Finicum's truck after the shooting.

The Deschutes County Sheriff's Office announced Tuesday that an investigation into the shooting won't be released for another four to six weeks.


http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/02/lavoy_finicums_family_death_un.html

Before he ever left the truck, eh? Probably stonewall for six weeks, then pay a multi-million dollar settlement rather than release the evidence, I figure.

 
McGentrix
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2016 10:51 pm
@layman,
I'm going to wait until some of the dust clears before I make any judgement one or the other.

It was a very tense situation and there is plenty of blame to be thrown around on both sides. If nothing else ever gets released, which I hope more will be, and all we have is this one video to discuss, then we can make some hay. But, I think I'm gonna wait awhile yet.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2016 11:05 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:
But, I think I'm gonna wait awhile yet.


Smart thinkin, Gent. But the whole thing is fishy, as it stands. They refuse to say how many times he was shot (only that the number is in "single digits)." They claimed it was very important to "clear the air and be as transparent as possible," but all they release is some grainy, blurry, video without sound, taken from hundreds of feet away. They refuse to let reporters or the family see the truck, or even close-up pictures of it. What's up with that?

This seems likely to me:

Quote:
The family contends that the FBI released a grainy, edited video without audio in an attempt to "sway public opinion from the outset."


0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 2 Feb, 2016 11:26 pm
Hmm, I wonder if there's any truth to this, eh? This sure don't seem to agree with the feds claim that they did "everything possible to resolve the situation peacefully," ya know?

Quote:
On Sunday evening, January 31, 2016, I interviewed Shawna Cox on The Common Sense Show. After being shot at over 100 times, and lucky to be alive, Shawna was taken into custody.

...they were pulled over at the first roadblock. At first, neither side did anything in what could be described as a silent stand-off. The occupants of the vehicles were not given any instructions (e.g. to exit the vehicle, etc.). Finally, in an attempt to show peaceful intent, Ryan Payne put both hands out of the truck through the open window, to show he was not armed, and he was promptly shot at with the bullet striking metal of the truck between the window and the mirror.


Immediately after Finicum was killed, the truck came under fire. No orders were issued to the occupants, and as it was at the first roadblock, firing bullets at the occupants of the truck was the first order of the day.

Cox believes that the vehicle was struck at least one hundred times. Both women were hysterically screaming to “please stop shooting” as the two women were begging for their lives.

This entire event, complete with two roadblocks, unprovoked gunfire and FBI agents in the trees could only be described as an “old west ambush”.

With no movement in the truck, and after firing over 100 rounds, the FBI finally issued its first order to surrender. They ordered the male occupants out of the vehicle, followed by the females.


What did these seven occupants do to warrant a “shoot first order”? Shawna added, as a footnote, that when the last man was taken into custody, they were asked if there were any others left in the truck. They responded that they were the last. The FBI promptly proceeded to fire over 100 more rounds into the vehicle after the vehicle was vacated.


http://freedomoutpost.com/2016/02/shauna-cox-eyewitness-to-lavoy-finicum-murder-they-shot-him-repeatedly-in-the-snow-while-he-lay-dying/#zkhgTIher6haAWwZ.99

Well, kinda like the cop apologist in that other thread said, eh?: If the truck doesn't have any bullet holes in it, then we will know what a lying slut she it, eh?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 12:04 am
@layman,


There's a 15-20 minute audio recording at this site, where anybody who wants to can hear her tell her story in her own words. She sounds sincere and credible to me. Seemingly not angry, vindictive, or emotionally unstable, and just stating the facts as she believes them to be, but you can judge for yourself.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 04:29 am
If it turned out to be true that Finicum was shot at while in his truck, shot and hit before he ever lowered his hands, I wonder how many here would still insist his killing was justified.

From what I can gather, quite a few. Many would probably say that the whole situation was "unfortunate," and that things could have been handled better by the cops, but still say it was all his fault for breaking the law in the first place and compelling the cops to take action against him,

Am I right?
farmerman
 
  4  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 04:40 am
@layman,
you seem to like running the possibilities without worrying about anything that smacks of evidence. Im sure there are other cameras and mikes on the event . What I saw was a guy who first came out of his car with his hands raied and then seemed to go for something (I cant say it was a gun)
Then he was shot with what appeared a single hit cause he went down like a sack of cement.

All this is just bla bla until the story is completely in.
Cops seemed to have a story . Apparently your side is based on "You can never believe the law".

layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 05:01 am
@layman,
From "Anti-war.com:"

Quote:
Hands Up, Don’t Execute
LaVoy Finicum, Michael Brown, and Identity Politics

Many liberals passed sentence on the Citizens for Constitutional Freedom (CCF) weeks ago....they were culturally unsympathetic criminals....many progressives called for these “militants” to be dealt with as “the terrorists they were”: lethally and with extreme prejudice. Besides, many said, the right-wing nuts were probably a bunch of Islamophobic racists.

The law-and-order left got what they wanted on Tuesday of last week, when several CCF members were ambushed on the road by the FBI and Oregon State Police. The killing was met mostly with approval or shrugs from progressives on social media.

During the Ferguson unrest, to the law-and-order right Michael Brown was just a “thug,” a known criminal who had recently shaken down a store. If he didn’t want to get shot, he shouldn’t have resisted a cop...

For the left, Michael Brown was a sympathetic figure (an underserved youth of color), so he had Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights which were violated by Officer Darren Wilson. On the other hand, LaVoy Finicum was an unsympathetic figure (a right-wing, gun-owning good ‘ol boy), and a potential threat, so he was fair game to be gunned down in the snow.

Both sides reduce all questions of justice to identity politics, and effectively treat rights as a sympathy-based concept. Both are blinded by their respective bigotries to the truth that rights are inherent to the individual, and are not based on group identity or cultural affinity.


http://original.antiwar.com/dan_sanchez/2016/02/01/division-and-conquest-in-the-war-at-home/

I wonder how many lefties agree that the left does this. I wonder how many righties agree that the right does this?

Very, very few, I suspect.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 05:04 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Apparently your side is based on "You can never believe the law".


You're right, Farmer. When they have killed someone, I would never "automatically" assume they were justified, certainly not in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Quote:
What I saw was a guy who first came out of his car with his hands raied and then seemed to go for something (I cant say it was a gun)
Then he was shot with what appeared a single hit cause he went down like a sack of cement


Do you still think that? The video is also consistent with the claim that he was shot BEFORE he lowered his hands. He wasn't going for a gun, the argument goes, but rather instinctively grabbing his wound.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 05:17 am
@layman,
Too much informationfor me to process before Ive had my coffee. Youve apparently been doing a lot of thinking about this. I just watched the video from the chopper-cam and I didnt see what Id call any other shots except at the end when he dropped. .
When he looked like he was going for a gun, you say he was grabbing some wounds?
That would mean the shooters were shooting into his pickup door as he was careening off the road where those other cop were standing. Was he heading for them? or did he just misjudge his ability to miss the roadblock cars?

Somebody'll release some sound clips then we can know from a basis of more compelling evidence
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 05:19 am
@layman,
You have to consider "Assault by pickup" as a weapons related felony. Was that what he was doing?

After you get some sleep, go bck nd sample the segment where Vinny was plowing off the road.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 05:22 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

You have to consider "Assault by pickup" as a weapons related felony. Was that what he was doing?

After you get some sleep, go bck nd sample the segment where Vinny was plowing off the road.


Heh, Farmer. Did the "sample" you saw show the cop jumping out into the path of the truck? Probably not. Look again, eh?

But let's assume it was a felonious assault by pick-up, as you claim. Now what? Would that justify shooting him dead as soon as he got out of the truck, or while he was still in it after coming to a stop?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 05:38 am
If you read it, then you know the author of the same op-ed I just posted continued (in part) as follows:

Quote:
No matter how many scare stories you’ve heard about criminals gaining super-human strength and immunity to pain from drug overdoses, Michael Brown was no imminent threat to the life of Darren Wilson. (Wilson testified that Brown, “…was almost bulking up to run through the shots…”)

And no matter how many cop movies you’ve seen where the surrendering perp kills an officer with a lightning-fast quick draw, LaVoy Finicum was no imminent threat to the lives of the agents and police surrounding him.

Neither LaVoy Finicum nor Michael Brown were killed in self-defense. Both were executed, and both for the same unwritten, age-old capital offense: lèse-majesté (literally “injured majesty”). Both had blasphemed the divine State by impudently defying its punitive priesthood (to use Will Grigg’s expression). And so examples were made out of both uppity peons, each time to the cheers of some of the State’s worshipful subjects, and each time as an object lesson for the rest.


Anyone tend to agree with that? I do.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 05:46 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I just watched the video from the chopper-cam and I didnt see what Id call any other shots except at the end when he dropped. .
When he looked like he was going for a gun, you say he was grabbing some wounds?


In the other thread, I posted some "enhanced and zoomed" video which clearly raised the possibility that he was shot with his hands in the air. I can't, and won't, say that's what happened, because it wasn't clear enough to be conclusive. It is "consistent" with that possibility, that's all. It also happens to be consistent with the testimony of the only eyewitnesses who have spoken about this event.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 05:59 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

I didnt see what Id call any other shots except at the end when he dropped. .


Well, I agree that you can't really tell from that video. You can tell when he falls, and, since you are looking into the rifle, you can also see it "flash."

The FBI agent was specifically asked how many times he was shot. He got coy, and refused to say. He did, however, say that the number was in the "single digits." Does that mean 9? If it was only once, it would have been simple for him to say "once."
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 06:36 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

But let's assume it was a felonious assault by pick-up, as you claim. Now what? Would that justify shooting him dead as soon as he got out of the truck, or while he was still in it after coming to a stop?


You don't have to look at any video or read any newspaper accounts in order to be able to give your opinion on that question, eh, Farmer? Whaddaya think?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 06:49 am
For the benefit of those who may not know, there is a reason why this 18 year old was in the truck. I have seen some left-wing commentators mock and discount her as "some young girl who hangs around with law-breaking militia" in an attempt to discredit her. Of course then they went on to say that the "law-breaking militia" guy (who didn't see a thing) who claimed that Finny "charged the cops" was the one who should be believed.

She, her mother, and siblings are gospel singers. They were scheduled to sing at the meeting they were going to attend. The mother and others left in another car and, because she wasn't ready yet, it was decided that Finny would drive her to the meeting. The family's car was let through the roadblock and went on to the meeting.

After the first stop, Finny asked the two women if they wanted to get out, before he lit out. The girl didn't want to--she was afraid she would be shot. The older woman said her "maternal instincts" kicked in and she decided not to leave the 18 year old. The cops had short waves and were in communication with each other. The ones at the roadblock up the road presumably knew there were non-threatening women in the car.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 08:09 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
you seem to like running the possibilities without worrying about anything that smacks of evidence.


Its called the "Hawkeye Defense", its based on quantity of bullshit over-riding quality of evidence.

Why doesn't some hamster run an IP check on layman? I bet its just a few miles from the failed restaurant of a suspended member.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 08:26 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Just curious, Bobby-boy: What grade of school are you in?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 3 Feb, 2016 08:56 am
@layman,
Quote:
Both are blinded by their respective bigotries to the truth that rights are inherent to the individual, and are not based on group identity or cultural affinity.


To me, this is the real, primary question raised by all these dubious police shootings. It's simply not important whose "side" you're on, and it disturbs me when it comes down to that. For many, it's not really a question of the abuse of police power--the only thing they care about is who is being abused--friend or foe?

An excerpt from another editorial on this Finicum shooting makes this point as follows
Quote:
What the Left and Right Both Get Wrong About the Oregon Militia Standoff

Imagine a serf is beaten by his master, who then says the beating was requested by a slave over some alleged transgression. Seeking vengeance, the beaten serf requests that the slave be beaten in return for his own misdeeds.

The master obliges, telling the slave that his beating was requested by the serf. The slave then retaliates likewise. The slave and the serf then become locked in a proxy war with each other, through the medium of their master.

They are so preoccupied with their enmity toward each other, they never even consider uniting against their true and common enemy. To the contrary, each becomes positively devoted to his master, as his chief champion against his perceived enemy. “If only I could finally get the master fully and finally on my side, then everything would be great!”

That is how the modern State divides and rules. Recent developments have shown how successful the American government has been in this regard.


http://www.dansanchez.me/feed/what-the-left-and-right-both-get-wrong-about-the-oregon-militia-standoff

The "common enemy" here is police "discretion" run amuck, and every time it happens, one side or the other seems to be condoning and even praising the cops for doing it. No wonder it persists, and even gets progressively worse.
 

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