Critical thinking on the existence of God

@manden,

What you've said is what you consider to be the truth. You're not alone, Squeakybro, Quahog, Martini and a whole host of others all claim to know it, and none of you can agree on it.

Believe those who are seeking the truth; doubt those who find it
André Gide.

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@izzythepush,

Then seek the truth completely honest with all your power with reason and
logic and without fixations .
and in many years we can speak again - perhaps , if you are successful .

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@manden,

I've had more than enough of false prophets as it is. You're just one of many. Why don't you sort it out amongst yourselves first?

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@izzythepush,

I can only say . Everybody has reason , logic and moral from the real creator .
You must only be able to use it more than a little (also very difficult ) . Then you can recognize , if that what I say is true .
But you are not really interested , and so you have no chance .

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@InfraBlue,

I agree that it is contradictory. That's why I personally believe the first part of what you quoted-- that God has always existed as this 'pure' base energy. All of our universe, I believe, is just an extension of that energy-- a highly-structured reality built on the underlying energy that is 'him'. I wish I had better words to describe it... but I'm also quite certain it is waaaaay beyond comprehension at this point in our existence.

The reason I go on to make the point about 'coming into being' is that most atheists tend to roll their eyes if I start with 'God is eternal and is the foundation of the universe'. It sounds like the same old rhetoric. I get slightly less eye rolling by leading them to the inarguable fact that energy can become conscious and manipulate other energy around it. From there, it is much easier to digest the next logical step that some portion of the energy has probably ALWAYS been aware given the infinite timeline.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank... thanks for the respectful comments. I don't actively seek atheists to thrust my logic on, mainly because experience has shown me that it is counter-productive. I do take advantage of opportunities like this thread that invite me to share my thoughts.

I acknowledge that the question 'Is there a God' is not a scientific question at all. If you can't observe, detect or measure something then science is useless. This is all really the realm of philosophy, and no philosophical argument can be concluded absolutely-- aside from the person who makes that final leap to hold it as true. It seems logical to me because it doesn't overtly fly in the face of the science we do know to be (apparently) true. Thanks to the work of brilliant physicists, I can peek at the underlying mechanisms of our reality that allow me to understand that our existence isn't 'magic'... just mind-blowing.

My failure to lead others to my conclusion is just something I'll have to accept, but hopefully the attempt isn't a total face-plant.

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@Logical Christian,

So, does this intelligent energy have any explanation for the 6000 +/- years of human misery chronicled by written history? If he (it) created us to suffer, it is one cruel %^&*, don't you think?

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@neologist,

I'm not sure what you're alluding to here. I have a hard time accepting that all of humanity has been suffering a 'miserable' existence for 6,000 years.

On the other hand, it's hard to convince an innocent man being 'drawn and quartered' or a nine-year-old sex slave imprisoned in an outdoor chicken coop about how much God loves us.

Any God that is 'OK' with that is exactly what you mentioned-- one cruel
motherf#*^er. But... I don't think he is though.

Accepting the fact that some higher intelligence is in control of a reality that we are obviously not in control of is easy to do. Holding fast to the idea that God is 'good' in the face of human atrocities is a different story. How do I reconcile that? It's complicated.

Where do I stand? It's definitely the most difficult idea to wrestle with... but I try and find solace in the teachings of Jesus. He unabashedly spoke of the 'ruler of this world' being the nefarious Satan (a rebellious angel) that has been allowed control of humanity for the time being. At the same time, Jesus stood unshaken in the face of his destiny and his assertion in the final authority of his 'Father', God.

We're supposedly fighting a battle between debasing into a sacrilegious pit or elevating ourselves to God's ideal-- proving our loyalty and earning a place in the kingdom to come. One promise is that no matter how horrible and wretched our situation, it is fleeting and all of our sufferings will pay tenfold in the next stage of our being.

I'm still out to bat as to whether Satan is the personification of our own tendency towards hedonism and ego-centrism, or if he is an actual rebellious entity created by God that has been allowed to proceed in order to prove a point.

So... the answer as to why God allows human suffering? I don't know. It's part of the test? No matter what, I believe that any suffering will either be trivial in the grand scheme of things, beneficial for the development of our character, or redeemed to us many times over after it has all been said and done.

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@Logical Christian,

Logical Christian wrote:

I'm not sure what you're alluding to here. I have a hard time accepting that all of humanity has been suffering a 'miserable' existence for 6,000 years.

Yeah, the JWs are a pessimistic bunch.

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@Logical Christian,

There are faults in the bible (see Internet) , that means it is NOT the word of
God but human invention , that means forget it ! THAT IS LOGIC !

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@Logical Christian,

Logical Christian wrote:

I'm not sure what you're alluding to here. I have a hard time accepting that all of humanity has been suffering a 'miserable' existence for 6,000 years.

Written history goes back only 5000 or so years. Bible chronology accounts for about 6040 years since the creation of Adam.

Logical Christian wrote:

On the other hand, it's hard to convince an innocent man being 'drawn and quartered' or a nine-year-old sex slave imprisoned in an outdoor chicken coop about how much God loves us.

Any God that is 'OK' with that is exactly what you mentioned-- one cruel
motherf#*^er. But... I don't think he is though.

Nor do I. The issues raised in the third chapter of Genesis could not be easily dismissed. If you examine Satan's words, you will note at least 2 things:
1] He claimed God is a liar in vs 4. (Note that Blue apparently is of the same opinion.)
2] He claimed humans would be able to manage their own affairs independent of God's standards in vs 5. (I gather that Blue feels humans have not been allowed sufficient opportunity to verify this claim. Ergo, God is insincere.

Logical Christian wrote:

Accepting the fact that some higher intelligence is in control of a reality that we are obviously not in control of is easy to do. Holding fast to the idea that God is 'good' in the face of human atrocities is a different story. How do I reconcile that? It's complicated.

Noted

Logical Christian wrote:

Where do I stand? It's definitely the most difficult idea to wrestle with... but I try and find solace in the teachings of Jesus. He unabashedly spoke of the 'ruler of this world' being the nefarious Satan (a rebellious angel) that has been allowed control of humanity for the time being. At the same time, Jesus stood unshaken in the face of his destiny and his assertion in the final authority of his 'Father', God.

We're supposedly fighting a battle between debasing into a sacrilegious pit or elevating ourselves to God's ideal-- proving our loyalty and earning a place in the kingdom to come. One promise is that no matter how horrible and wretched our situation, it is fleeting and all of our sufferings will pay tenfold in the next stage of our being.

I'm still out to bat as to whether Satan is the personification of our own tendency towards hedonism and ego-centrism, or if he is an actual rebellious entity created by God that has been allowed to proceed in order to prove a point.

So... the answer as to why God allows human suffering? I don't know. It's part of the test? No matter what, I believe that any suffering will either be trivial in the grand scheme of things, beneficial for the development of our character, or redeemed to us many times over after it has all been said and done.

Agreed.
Many people live lives of unspeakable pain and degradation where death may seem to provide merciful relief. Yet, in the resurrection promised by Jesus at John 5:28-29, those same people will have the opportunity for everlasting life. Would you expect that after several hundred years of life in good health and worthwhile activity any would fault god for the pain they had endured? Or, would they thank God for carrying through with his purpose?

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@Logical Christian,

I think what you have here is a very eloquent statement of the argument of gradations of being. I like the way you present it.

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@neologist,

Quote:

Would you expect that after several hundred years of life in good health and worthwhile activity any would fault god for the pain they had endured? Or, would they thank God for carrying through with his purpose?

I do think they would thank God for carrying through, but not because of a few hundred or even a few thousand years of of good health and worthwhile activity.

They, if they are intellectually honest, would require knowing what the purpose was behind the pain they endured. It has to make sense, there must be a reason. A being of reason does not accept happiness as quid pro quo for pain. If it was the 'body builders rational for pain' (no pain - no gain) I'd be so dissapointed that I'd say 'screw it, just let me die'.

I do believe there is a better rationale for the pain we suffer.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Would you expect that after several hundred years of life in good health and worthwhile activity any would fault god for the pain they had endured? Or, would they thank God for carrying through with his purpose?
I do think they would thank God for carrying through, but not because of a few hundred or even a few thousand years of of good health and worthwhile activity.

They, if they are intellectually honest, would require knowing what the purpose was behind the pain they endured. It has to make sense, there must be a reason. A being of reason does not accept happiness as quid pro quo for pain. If it was the 'body builders rational for pain' (no pain - no gain) I'd be so dissapointed that I'd say 'screw it, just let me die'.

I do believe there is a better rationale for the pain we suffer.

Perhaps you meant "rationalization."

Lots of rationalizing must be done to accept that Abrahamic version of a creator...that and lots of mind closing, Leadfoot.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Perhaps you meant "rationalization."

No, I meant what I said - Rationale.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps you meant "rationalization."

No, I meant what I said - Rationale.

Okay, I'll accept that.

Too bad you didn't get it right, though. If you had, you would have written "rationalization."

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

If you had, you would have written "rationalization."

Funny, that sounds like something an atheist would say. FBM is always cautioning me against attributing my own thoughts to others.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
If you had, you would have written "rationalization."
Funny, that sounds like something an atheist would say.

I don't see why.

It sounds to me like something an agnostic might say.

Quote:

FBM is always cautioning me against attributing my own thoughts to others.

You would do well to disregard FBM's advice.

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@Frank Apisa,

Thankyou for your earlier 'compliment' . You would do well to keep manden handy, because compared to his, your own vacuous platitudes look positively scintillating ! Mr. Green

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I suggest to all contributors that 'critical thinking' should first be applied to the concept of 'existence' per se. When you have sorted that out ( Wink

) you might find that understanding the use of a 'God concept is pretty trivial.

1 Reply

Critical thinking on the existence of God

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