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Critical thinking on the existence of God

 
 
evilsorcerer1
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 18 Aug, 2017 06:35 pm
@Susmariosep,
I have so many thoughts on God; I've listed many of them. They're some messages I've posted over the past couple of weeks and are kind of jumbled. And remember I don't believe the bible is the word of god. I believe the creation story wasn’t accurate. It seems much more likely to me there were possibly 120 (appx) man and woman pairs each with their own language and land (country) probably all about the same size. I think the serpent was a representation of the authors misconception. One, snakes have 200-400 ribs and two after the serpent caused them to eat it was cursed to crawl on its belly which means it was taller before and possibly had legs and arms which represented people of different nationalities. I do think the fact that each person has 24 (12 sets) may somehow coincide with how many races there are or were. If 240 people were created at once then that would be 10 races or 240 people (24 ribs). But most peoples would probably agree with that theory because no one probably saw anyone for a very long time. Basically I’ve proven to myself that man is completely physical without a soul then the creation of man required the brain and heart to function without a soul. And I think planets and suns had to be formed with wind and fire and elements. But I basically know Jesus never rose from the dead and possibly no one in the Bible ever lived but was all symbolic. For the Bible to have been written by a ‘chosen child of god’ it probably would have to have been written by the first ‘child of God’ to ever exist. And the rib taken out of the woman probably represented the misconception that God is physical and we are made in his likeness. I think the correct way to interpret that would be man was made in his likeness, meaning made in a way that only God could do, in his greatness and awesomeness some might say, which I wouldn’t because I’ve blasphemed God and now am cursed to attempt to be my own God.

I'm just curious about people's opinion that none of the people in the Bible are real but symbols. For instance christ really didn't die on the cross but was a symbol of the sons of God and the 1000 year reign of christ symbolized all followers of God from the beginning to the end. In Genesis although many people claim the serpent was the devil it never actually mentions the devil. In fact the Bible never mentions the devil much in the old testament. I believe that it's a misconception that the devil and angels exist and only God is spirit and all his creation is flesh and only flesh and always will be flesh. A war in heaven is mentioned and says the devil and his angels are thrown to earth. It also talks about a Child that he makes war with. I think the devil and his followers represent blasphemy of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and the angels represent the spirit of God or man's view of the spirit of God which is limited and so since man has limited ability to see things they would have seen an 'angel' or a piece of God's spirit which is a reflection of their own limited minds. I also think that the 12 children of Israel represent a timeline that somehow fits into 1000 years. So none of the people in the Bible were real people but symbolic. I also believe man's life has been 120 years from the beginning. So if 12 children which represented all sons of God from the beginning of time to the end that would be 1440 years. But if christ dying on the cross actually represented the Era of the tribe of Judah and that Era was 0 years in length symbolizing that only God is spirit, then that would be 1320 years. Also when Jacob prophecies about his sons he says Levi and Ephraim are brothers which may symbolize two brothers sharing a time period. I also believe all the Hebrew people in the Bible are only a symbol of sons of God and non Hebrew people are a symbol of the accursed. And so the devil is a symbol of when an accursed person 'thinks' about Jesus they are 'seeing'  a 'devil' (according to God) because they have blasphemed God. And the devil's angels are seen instead of angels because they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. I think John the Baptist who Jesus called Elijah was Elijah because they were both only symbolic like everything else in the Bible.  Hm and someone else in the Bible were the two witnesses breathing fire from their mouths. But he didn't breathe fire from his mouth because that was also a symbol of someone prophecying of the destruction of the Earth in the end. Because of this I also believe Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't an actual event but a prophecy of the end. I think the Hebrew people aren't even a real people but maybe a nation (probably very small at the time)  that people believed were destroyed in fire but weren't and took the Hebrew name for themselves because they believed they were God's chosen. In the Bible it implies sons of God look toward the last day for salvation and so I think the order of the 12 sons of Israel is reversed when placed on a time line for this reason. So Jacob said “Reuben, you are my firstborn,
    my strength, the very first son I had,
        first in majesty and first in power.
4 You will no longer be first
    because you were out of control like a flood
        and you climbed into your father’s bed.
            Then you dishonored it.
        He climbed up on my couch." So Levi and Simeon were next and Jacob goes on: “Simeon and Levi are brothers.
    Their swords are weapons of violence.
6 Do not let me attend their secret meetings.
Do not let me join their assembly.
    In their anger they murdered men.
    At their whim they crippled cattle.
7 May their anger be cursed because it’s so fierce.
May their fury be cursed because it’s so cruel.
    I will divide them among the sons of Jacob
        and scatter them among the tribes of Israel. I believe that they are the last Era before the end because the Bible says in the Old Testament Elijah never died and Enoch never died. But they weren't real people but symbolized all the sons of god from the beginning to the end. Because at the end the two witnesses are killed because it's the end of the Earth. "And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." So Sodom was a symbol of the end. Their bodies laid in the street for three and a half days and then they rose again. I think this may be tied to the seven days it took to create the Earth but instead in half that time God will destroy the Earth and create a new one. God talked with Abraham in the Bible and said He would not destroy Sodom if 10 righteous were in it and I think that when the last son or sons of God are killed that God will destroy the Earth. If I'm right and only God is Spirit he will destroy all physical matter and create a new Earth. Probably all the stars of the universe will collapse in which the flood at the beginning of the Bible may be a symbol of because I've realized many times a son in the Bible is actually a new expanded  revelation about something like Jacob was a revelation about the sons of God from the beginning of time to the end and his 12 sons were an expanded revelation about the same thing. I also think the 1/3 of the angels thrown to earth was a symbol of the mark of the beast because it is a symbol of a man (more than 99% of the earth since the beginning). People that think they can attain salvation or are saved are wrong and the 666 represents .666 which goes on forever but the 666 without the point before it represents those people. And the 666 would also represent the opposite of the .333 angels that are thrown to Earth which are the people who think they are sons of God. All those people who weren't Hebrew who lived to around 1000 represented mankind from the beginning to the end who are accursed. So John the Baptist (symbolic like all people in the Bible)  was from the tribe of Levi and Judas Iscariot (son of Simon, or the tribe Simeon, also Jesus called Peter Satan and said Satan entered Judas) represents Enoch. Because the next of the sons of Jacob was Judah which was Jesus the 'Lion of Judah'. When it said Judas betrayed Jesus it was actually a symbol of ending of the Era of Judah. "And while He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, came from the chief priests and elders of the people." In the prophecy of Jacob of the two brothers it says their swords are weapons of violence. Also "Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He had been condemned, was remorseful and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 saying, “I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." And they said, “What is that to us? You see to it!”5 Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. So it seems the giving of the money back was a link between Jesus overturning the tables of the merchants and Judas meaning they were both sons of God and good. So the Hebrew people aren't a real people at all but a symbol of sons of God from all nations and the Hebrew nation is some nations (probably only a small few at the time) belief they were God's chosen and so adopted the name but were some other nation that circumcised themselves. But in the Bible it specifically states Abraham circumcised the flesh of Ishmael but never says 'the flesh' when talking about Isaac. So circumcision and washing people's feet wasn't a real thing sons of God did but maybe a practical joke. Also in the Bible the devil and his angels being thrown into the bottomless pit is a representation of all people that aren't sons of God who die and because we are flesh death is to cease to exist and the bottomless pit represents time when we cease to be and we are resurrected through fire to eternal damnation in the end. So what is the end? Well if I'm right and only God is spirit then somewhere out there there is an end to all physical matter (Also if Jesus was a man who rose to the heavens where did he go? It would probably take so many  light years you couldn't imagine to get past anything that isn't simply outer space and then there would be only the Spirit of God. So Jesus ascending into heaven isn't even possible.
. When the Bible talks about Adam and Eve I believe they are a symbol of all people not sons and daughters of God from the beginning of time to the end. Their approximate 1000 year life span also represents that. I don't think when the world was created that there was only a man and a woman but probably many men and women (one man and one woman pair with their own language, nationality and language) dispersed throughout the world. The Bible says at Babel the languages were confused but it's possible that that happened during creation. Creation was probably a very complicated process and that's why everyone who dies from the beginning to the end ceases to exist but doesn't reach final judgment because for people to go to the lake of fire there has to be fire, which probably will be created from the sun's and planets.
 "In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created." According to this segment from Genesis God created men and women at creation in the likeness of God. I don't think that meant to look like God or in his image but in the manner of God, in a way that was complicated and difficult to understand. So it is possible many people were created during creation. 
So the difference between a child of God and an accursed person is that a son of God only has death as a sin. That is sin. Death is sin. All people must die. But those that have blasphemed God will be eternally damned. The story of man and woman and the serpent I think represents a life without God. A person who was a son of God wouldn't say that a serpent made them do it. When people believed that the snake was the devil,  it was symbolic of blasphemy, because they said God was evil. 
. The Bible also says Enoch walked with God and was not and that his descendant Noah also walked with God. Neither was a real person but a symbol of mankind from beginning to end and in the Bible a son or descendant was a symbol of a more clear and expanded revelation.   

Genesis 26 tells the story of Abimelech and Isaac and earlier in the book tells almost exactly the same story but with Abraham which strengthens my theory about sons being more detailed revelations. 

Now after those days his wife Elizabeth conceived; and she hid herself five months, saying, 25 “Thus the Lord has dealt with me, in the days when He looked on me, to take away my reproach among people.” The 5 months is probably the same 5 months talked about in Revelation when people were tormented. 
 Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. 9 And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid. 10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. 11 For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger.”

Then he (John the Baptist) said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” stones. 9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees.

Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,[d] the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, 27 the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the sonof Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the sonof Hezron, the son of Perez, the sonof Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the sonof Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; 26 but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath,[m] in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.”

The number of the beast is the number of a man and its the same mark Cain had. All it means is a person that believes they are saved or can be saved. In other words no one could be saved or is saved. The 666 represents 2/3 of the people on the Earth that believe they can be saved but can't. 1/3 represents those that know they can't be saved. The point is the Bible says whoever takes the mark will die but it also says whoever doesn't take the mark will die. The point is everyone is going to die and it's too late to attain salvation. So basically what we have are over 7 billion crazy people who can't be saved that are destroying approximately. 1/3 of all life for nothing. We're probably just waiting for everyone to be born before the Earth is destroyed. In Genesis people always claim the serpent is the devil but it never said that. That's a symbol of blaspheming God, who is only spirit and all his creation is flesh. A lot of times things are in reverse order and if the Bible wasn't written by 'sons of god' the 1000 year reign of christ ended. I believe a lot of the NT explains that man has been trying to decode the Bible for a very long time and Jesus more than likely never existed but was a symbol of the last true children of God to exist except its probably been 8000 years since the last one was born.


I've been studying genesis and I'd like to discuss what it means. First, the word meanings. Also I doubt any of the people are real. Men and women are just symbolic. Adam (Air, dirt, air, man) represents at first dirt of the earth. Eden is heaven. The water that flows from Eden is both natural (fallen) and spiritual (chosen). I don't believe the divinity of the book, only stating some of the symbolism. When Adam knew Eve (Havilah or cycle which represents season/s) the water flowed and the garden grew, as did man. The description is part of how the world was created. Adam was mankind, not just man, although I don't know if the author thought that. The serpent (a snake has 200-400 ribs) represents the misconception that there was only one man and woman. The rib taken from Adam was possibly used for the chosen elect. That would be 1/12 of humanity if which I think it was much less, maybe 1/480. Man and woman were thrown out of the garden and a flaming sword was placed around it to keep them out which I think represented the sun (always circling). Man's first attempt to explain the universe. When he was describing the location it may have been the four rivers represented the Euphrates (פרת) and Hiddekel (חדקל) and two oceans. The names of the rivers have similar names while Gichon and Pishon (פישון, גיחון) also are very similar. Gichon surrounds the land of Cush which may represent Africa (c for Cush). But it could have also been an place like heaven if gold represents the sun, onyx stone represents the moon and bdellium represents the stars. Havilah (Hebrew: חֲוִילָה‎‎ "Circular") also spelled Evilas or Evilath could be Eve or evening. So if you want to elaborate on your theories about genesis please do.

Well I think I think a lot of it is myth, misconception, lie or whatever you want to call it. But I'm not just knocking this book, I think the whole world is this way. But my beliefs are based on a lot of facts and evidence. I've looked at a lot of the Bible and it doesn't add up. But I think answers can be found in myths and lies throughout history. The genealogy of Adam and Noah I think are clues. If you've studied it you'd know what I was talking about. But it seems like it may have figured some of the answers out. If you want to reply to my thoughts please do. Adam (my thoughts not the bibles writer/s) . . I think the languages were mixed up in Babylon but not the way its written. I think that was where people started writing for the first time and that's what confused the languages. I also think there were a lot of languages to start with. I've been studying words and it seems all vowels represent air, oxygen, and so on. Squiggly vowels letters with some consonant would be liquid; with for water, s for salt+water. Water could have been easily curvy originally. r for river. Solid sounds would represent solid matter. P is planet, d is dirt. I think vowels could also represent an idea like a for apple in the garden of eden. It works a lot more than you might think. And in the genealogies the ages and names don't add up. But Adam lived 130 years and then bore Cain. Then he lived 800 and died at 930. But then Terah lived to 70. So maybe the 1000 year reign of christ happened from creation. I think the writers of the New testament studied the old testament and thought they found some kind of code that the Bible was symbolic (which a lot was). But when the Jews said Jesus blasphemed because he claimed to be God it's true, but it's also true looking for answers in a book like the Bible is blasphemy because it's putting faith in a physical thing. (but I think everyone alive has blasphemed and I'll tell you why later. Because the serpent was not the devil but a physical thing. When man said the snake made him do it it was really man saying God is an evil spirit. Because blasphemy is also wanting to be God, to be like him. God is a spirit who wanted his people to trust him when they existed. But I think some people thought they had found a code in the old testament and wrote the new testament as a symbolic book and wrote the new testament in the same way. Because none of those people existed but were symbolic of the the last generation of the sons of God. But the 1000 year reign of christ I think ended 1000 years after the world began. Because Both Adam and Tierra means dirt. One Adam was mankind and one was the 'elect'. I think the rib taken from Adam symbolized man's blindness that they were blasphemous and there was a small chosen elect. But a lot of the numbers might add up to something else. I think Noah, Adam and Terah might actually not have been fathers of three sons but of the same race. I think the meaning of the writing's may have been lost somewhere. That would make 12 plus 12 wives and offspring. If there was 1 race for each continent and 12 couples on each continent that would be 288 people created,each with their own language and dispersed equally throughout the world. I have a lot more on the subject also.
The rib was a false revelation of the facts of history. As was most of the book and books throughout history. I have a theory that the Bible, maybe the Koran and any other books based on a 'God' giving them some great victory began around the time the last real chosen child of God existed. I think the authors maybe felt a difference in the world with their deaths and thought God had somehow slain their enemies. I think the revelation about Sodom and Gomorrah may have happened but in reality it was a volcano and happened after children of God died and was done to preserve their bodies from being defiled by us. Because if we are flesh then it may have been necessary if it wasn't the type of substance used to create them but the specific substance. For example, if there was nothing in the universe and a spirit we call God created, how did he do it? Did he create something from nothing? If a all powerful has been here forever was there ever nothing but a spirit in existence? Because it would have to have created something from nothing. So let's say an all powerful spirit that has always existed and one day decided to create something. Maybe he created some stuff and then destroyed it all and started over. But this time he decided to create a living being with a choice. But was the whole universe created at once, like some great spirit moving its 'spiritual' hands and many types of dust and fire and water and air began to swirl and form the universe. So everything was formed and (in my opinion) a lot of human beings were created. Now for something to live its not necessary to have a soul, at least if you consider plant and animal life. They just don't have a conscience and an ability to choose God. But I suppose each person could have been created by a combination of different substances without requiring that the specific matter they were be required to resurrect them. In other words, I'm guessing God can't rebuild the chosen from the same substance they existed with on earth only use some from a planet/s in outer space. Same goes for the accursed. If we have to live to feel pain then we will have to be constructed of something that can exist in fire or something. Then when the last person has been the Earth and universe could be destroyed and rebuilt from nothing. 
Old Testament Judaism; Belief in a man as God was blasphemy 
New Testament Christianity; Belief in the Universe as God is blasphemy 
My conclusion; all have blasphemed that claim anything other than God is a spirit. Basically anything a person puts their faith in besides the spirit God is blasphemy and that would be anything physical. Also, if God knew who would choose what and chosen one could touch anything defiled, he could have caused only one people to be born because all the rest would be cursed by touching cursed people. So their existence would have to have ended before a lot of people would contaminate and pollute the world. Maybe the world was constrained from really reproducing until the chosen had died. That's another reason why I think that maybe the children of God's time on earth ended around Abraham's time because he had a lot of sons. Maybe a restraint was taken off of him and other people and they could procreate more often. Adam (mankind, creation,dirt) 130 years+800 years+Terah(terrain, dirt)=1000 years; if there were more than one people ( 1 rib =1/24 total or 12 peoples) created at creation that'd have been a certain numbers for years lifespan for the world. The rib is what the man thought was a snake or evil being taken out of him, but he is lost.

Actually if Jesus dying for peoples' sins and rising again in physical form and promising to return one day in physical form is the foundation of the Christian' religion then answer me this: when he rose from the dead where did he go? There's nothing out there except stars and planets and moons for as far as we've seen. Eventually it ends and there is only the sport of God (which is God) but the point is I don't think he could have arrived at Mars by now. But the mark really isn't the divine word of God or some extra evil thing, the point is everyone is already cursed to die and the mark wasn't some Vision of a mark of evil that if you take you will automatically get your head chopped off, because the people in the bible trying to make others take the mark already had it. What's evil is people running around claiming to be brave and not afraid to die when there are 7 billion people not afraid to die you only end up with a lot of people hurting each other and causing fights. But it's very likely the Bible was not the inspired word of God but only man using his warped ability to try to find the truth by searching. The only way I see the bible was god's word is if it was all symbolically the hebrews weren't an actual nation but a name given to children of god from every nation. So when someone wrote if you take the mark you'll die and that if you don't take the mark you'll die the people were going to die anyway because they're people (and they'll go to hell anyway) because they're accursed.

The number of the beast is the number of a man and its the same mark Cain had. All it means is a person that believes they are saved or can be saved. In other words no one could be saved or is saved. The 666 represents 2/3 of the people on the Earth that believe they can be saved but can't. 1/3 represents those that know they can't be saved. The point is the Bible says whoever takes the mark will die but it also says whoever doesn't take the mark will die. The point is everyone is going to die and it's too late to attain salvation. So basically what we have are over 7 billion crazy people who can't be saved that are destroying approximately. 1/3 of all life for nothing. We're probably just waiting for everyone to be born before the Earth is destroyed. In Genesis people always claim the serpent is the devil but it never said that. That's a symbol of blaspheming God, who is only spirit and all his creation is flesh. A lot of times things are in reverse order and if the Bible wasn't written by 'sons of god' the 1000 year reign of christ ended. I believe a lot of the NT explains that man has been trying to decode the Bible for a very long time and Jesus more than likely never existed but was a symbol of the last true children of God to exist except its probably been 8000 years since the last one was born.

First, it would be in 
people's nature to believe that God has physical characteristics or can 
touch physical matter because they want to be like him. But it actually 
makes sense that God is a spirit and only a spirit and all his creation is 
physical matter and only that. Now I believe even the wind is physical 
matter but God is a true spirit and only that. It makes sense that he is 
an/the all powerful spirit all encompassing all knowing. So if you come to 
the conclusion that he really is the only spirit like I have you will 
probably also realize blasphemy is unforgivable. Actually I'm pretty sure 
if one of his children were to touch one of us or be touched by one of us 
they would be defiled and sentenced to burn forever. But part of God's 
promise I think is that He can protect his children. But I think that if 
that's true then the last child of god hasn't been alive for a very long 
time. I also believe if that's true then the Bible is all symbolism and 
actually not the word of God because a book is physical matter and it would 
be blasphemy to say that. It would make sense that trusting him to guide 
you is a requirement. I think the Bible was probably began about the time 
the last 'child of God' died. In fact, it may have been a result of a 
feeling that God was on their side because they felt their greatest enemy 
was dead. And also, I have a strong feeling that the Bible was all symbolic 
and written by people who thought they found God or could find God in 
physical matter. Also, Jesus couldn't have been the son of God, because he 
was a physical being. Also it would take light years to get anywhere 
besides stars and planets. But I'm almost positive the stories (all of them 
were symbolic and written by people who thought the found the symbolism or 
knew it was a sham. The great thing is when our bodies die we also die and 
'cease to exist' and won't be alive until we're somehow resurrected to live 
in fire, our molecules somehow are part of the fire. But all creation 
rejected by God will be there at exactly the same time.



666 represents man's belief he is saved or can be saved. But the mark means (the Bible isn't the word of God unless most of the people in it are only symbolic and was entirely written thousands of years ago) people who want to save others and or be lived they can attain salvation. The 1000 year reign of christ is over and christ (if the symbolism of the Bible is true) wasn't a man but the last generation of the sons of God). I know a lot about the subject and I can prove my statements. People didn't live to 1000 years that symbolized the length of time 'the sons of God walked the earth. Man is flesh and can never be spirit and when we die God hates us and all our flesh will burn. But if the wind blew some of our DNA onto a chosen its possible they would become defiled and condemned to burn. In fact they probably had to be born of their own kind. Cain and Abel weren't real people but symbolic. I think the author of the Bible thought God put a mark on cain but man was living in darkness and thought they could hear God but the 1000 year reign of christ had already ended. Because there were so few children of god now the accursed are waiting for the last person who will ever be born. Blasphemy is believing that someone besides God can be spirit because it means you already don't know his voice ( but likely no one does). So likely the Bible was not inspired by God and thought that Satan and 1/3 of his angels fell when in fact there are no demons or angels. So trying to make people take a mark represents those people who aren't afraid to die when they are already condemned to eternal damnation. In other words even if, like me, you know you can't be saved, someone is trying to make me take the mark it really doesn't matter because we're all already condemned and the people who are warring and living like their not already condemned have the mark. But you can get rid of the mark by simply coming to the realization you can't be saved. So the mark is really not the main point, it's that a world full of condemned people who think they are forgiven are blowing 1/3 of themselves closer to eternal fire and taking me with them.

Susmariosep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Aug, 2017 02:51 pm
@evilsorcerer1,
Dear Evilsor, I have a reply to you on your lengthy post with little attention to punctuation marks, and also much less to intervening paragraph divisions, in this thread, see Annex below.

I am sincerely regretful for you, in that your deficiency in the art of writing clearly has metastasized elsewhere, like into the present thread.

Dear readers here, let us all sit back and await with bated breath to witness whether Evilsor will change for the better, or sink deeper and deeper into a bottomless sinkhole of what? defiance and hatred toward well-intentioned folks like one, Susmariosep.

Everyone, Look forward to what will occur now!

Annex
Quote:
• Post: # 6,487,223 | Susmariosep | Sat 19 Aug, 2017 03:58 am
Name of thread: "Oh atheists, teach me there is no God and I will be free."
_________________________________________

@evilsorcerer1,
Dear Evilsor, I don't think we have met before.

Now, what you will feel after you read this post from me, you will get to hate me big.

You see, you have transmitted a post that is quite lengthy and without much employment of punctuation marks, and with intervening the whole text with paragraph partitions, they are all invented by intelligent writers for a purpose, to make a write-up easier to read without compromising the substance of the message.

So, here is my proposal to you:

Imagine that you are taking an exam in essay form, no filling the blanks, no multiple choices, no true or false answers, but you must answer to questions with writing a piece of text to each question, to show the board of examiners that you can think straight.

So, now go through your piece reproduced by me below for your convenience, get busy and rewrite it, okay?

Availing yourself now of punctuation marks and partitioning your whole piece into paragraph divisions.

[...]

[ I put a remark at the left margin of this [Evilsor's] post, namely: tldr. ]

[...]

0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2017 09:37 am
@evilsorcerer1,
Quote:
But I basically know Jesus never rose from the dead and possibly no one in the Bible ever lived but was all symbolic.

Since you asked, That's probably The most ignorant assessment of any document I've ever seen.

The bible can be studied objectively just like any other historical document. There are more copies of it from that era than any other so its authenticity has been established by innumerable historians. Whether you believe the writers were telling the truth or not is another question but to question their existence is gross ignorance.
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2017 02:14 pm
@Leadfoot,
[ DISCLOSURE: I know for certain that God exists in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning. ]
____________________________


Dear Leadfoot, I concur with you completely, namely:
Quote:
The bible can be studied objectively just like any other historical document.

That is what I always adhere to, namely: to think on truths, facts, logic, and the best thoughts of mankind from since the dawn of man's conscious intelligence.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2017 02:29 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

Quote:
But I basically know Jesus never rose from the dead and possibly no one in the Bible ever lived but was all symbolic.

Since you asked, That's probably The most ignorant assessment of any document I've ever seen.

The bible can be studied objectively just like any other historical document. There are more copies of it from that era than any other so its authenticity has been established by innumerable historians. Whether you believe the writers were telling the truth or not is another question but to question their existence is gross ignorance.

Yeah, like with all of the copies of the Iliad and Odyssey, it's authentic, and can be studied objectively just like any other historical document, so Achilles and Odysseus existed.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2017 02:31 pm
As an historical document, the bobble is fairy tale. It is supported by no independent corroborating historical documents--not Greek, not Persian and not Roman.
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Aug, 2017 03:30 pm
@Setanta,
[ DISCLOSURE: I have the certainty that God exists, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning. ]
______________________________________


Dear Setanta, whatever you love to talk about against the Bible, please just tell me where you come from, okay?

Yes, I concur with you that like all of us we come from our mothers respectively.

Still, don't stop there, otherwise your brain is nothing but a stopper, sad, very sad, for you, indeed!

Think to the ultimate biggest picture of things in the default status of everything in the totality of reality which is existence, okay?

From my part, I take the Bible as record of man's thinking from since he came to the dawn of conscious intelligence.

Okay, no more from me on the Bible, because my point here with atheists and everyone else who do care to talk on the issue God exists or not, is to invite us all to think on truths, facts, logic, and the best thoughts of mankind from since the dawn of man's conscious intelligence.

However, always prescinding from any claim by men, to be writing from divine whatever inspiration, revelation.

Okay, dear readers here, let us all sit back and await to witness, what Setanta and his kind will now go into of flippancies, and finally take leave of the issue God exists or not.

Or, Oh no, they will go into foul language of hatred, etc., that is the last refuge of humans who use their brain for a stopper.

Before I forget, even among ancient writers, they already in their writings tell us what they write, is it fiction or history.

So, not everything from them ancient writers, they are not all into fiction and not all into history, you must with your intelligence find out what they are into, fiction or history.
Razzleg
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 01:41 am
@Susmariosep,
i like how your disclosure statement contradicts your OP
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 07:54 am
@InfraBlue,
Read it again Blue. You and set obviously missed what I said the first time through.

If you think none of the characters in the bible existed, you are both too ignorant to discuss the subject with.
0 Replies
 
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Aug, 2017 11:20 am
@Razzleg,
Dear Razz, thanks for your reaction to my disclosure.

Now, you tell me:
"@Susmariosep,
i like how your disclosure statement contradicts your OP."

Please bear with me, kindly produce the link in this a2k where my disclosure is contradicting my OP, okay?
0 Replies
 
bjacky
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 03:17 pm
@Susmariosep,
Everything in existence is governed by divine law. The prophet Alma said:

"The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator." - Alma 30:44

The prophet Jacob talked about how he knew about the mission of Jesus Christ:

"And I said unto him: Deniest thou the Christ who shall come? And he said: If there should be a Christ, I would not deny him; but I know that there is no Christ, neither has been, nor ever will be.

And I said unto him: Believest thou the scriptures? And he said, Yea.

And I said unto him: Then ye do not understand them; for they truly testify of Christ. Behold, I say unto you that none of the prophets have written, nor prophesied, save they have spoken concerning this Christ.

And this is not all—it has been made manifest unto me, for I have heard and seen; and it also has been made manifest unto me by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, I know if there should be no atonement made all mankind must be lost." Jacob 7:10 - 12

We are hear to be tested and tried and to see if we will follow and seek out all the divine laws of God. To those that seek out more, more is given, to those that seek out less, less is given. It is a knowledge factor based on one's willingness to seek out God, learn of his will and study and follow His word.

As I said earlier, all things that denote there is a God is staring us right in the face. However, if someone does not wish to believe in God, they don't have to believe. They can come-up with theories of men and excuses as to why there is not a supreme creator but that is all they will ever be.

If someone does not want to seek-out God, they are not forced to. God respects agency. He will not force someone to do and see something they don't want to. A "Miracle" is God's power working through someone dependent on their diligence and willingness to seek out God and God is able to use His power through that individual that is connected to divine law.

Based on that, from what I know and what I have experienced through my studying and praying and seeking to know Him and His will, I know that God lives. I can feel Him when I earnestly pray in faith. I have had prayers answered. I have seen miracles and I have had the chance and ability for God to work through me to bless other individuals.

Based on that, there is no question that God exists. There is nothing that someone can do that can take away from what I know about God. As the prophet Jacob said, God speaks to us through the power of the Holy Ghost. We have to be in tune to feel that power. When you feel it, it can be an overcoming feeling that extends beyond anything that the natural eye can see.

To be in tune, it cannot just be a mere curiosity and just be going through the motions. One must have the actual burning desire to know of the existence of God and have the desire to follow Him and His will and repent of any sins that one may know that they have committed, meaning forsaking that act and confessing it to God and possibly making restitution to anyone that was offended or wronged.

That is what being in tune means, aligning one's will with God's will. God cannot dwell in unholy places based on someone knowingly rebelling against His will. Jesus Christ is importance to this formula as well because what he did for mankind bridged the gap between us and the Father.

No one is perfect, we all fall short so he has become an intercessory between us and the father. Because of that, those that don't know God's laws and ignorantly disobey eternal laws are still not severed from God through Jesus Christ. Those that do know his laws and don't obey His will are severed for willful rebellion.

As a result, Jesus Christ has standards that one has to follow to get back in tune with the Father. As mentioned, they must repent and forsake sins and have a desire to learn and know and follow God's will. This is the plan of redemption. It is freely available to all mankind.

When you start obeying God's laws you will start to fill the Holy Ghost in your life which can guide and direct you to where you need to go and what you need to do. The Holy Ghost is also a cleanser and sanctifier. It will lift a person up to new heights that were not possible with merely their own strength, they can overcome weaknesses, fear, doubt ect. through this process.

This process allows someone to return back to the presence of the Father where we were with Him from the start as a resurrected being thanks to the redemption of Jesus Christ. We lived with Him as spirits prior to this life and we are here to learn and grow with mortal bodies and see if we would do all that we were commanded to do on this earth.

We are all searching to be content. We are all yearning for something more in this life. What we are searching knowingly or not is for the feeling we felt when we lived back in the presence of our Father. People may have found supplements, but true Happiness and Joy are only experienced through grasping onto eternal truths and allowing for Jesus Christ to fill in the gaps with our own ignorance of all truth.

So, in my mind, the question of whether or not God exists makes no sense. The real question should be, what have I done in this life to seek out God and follow His will and draw toward Him? Have I followed His commandments to the best of my ability? Or do I have remorse of conscious still of things past that still have not been cleansed through Jesus Christ? Have I had a sincere conversation with God before or lately? Have I studied any of the words of prophets that have been connected to God lately as an intent to learn who He is? Have I asked Him for forgiveness of actions I knowingly made against Him? Have I ever felt the redeeming love of my Savior Jesus Christ through this process? Have I ever sung the song of redeeming love? Are my hands clean? Are my motives pure?

There will come a time when we will all stand before the Savior Jesus Christ and give an account to Him of our time spent on earth. So are you ready for that moment or are you stuck on debating whether or not He even exists?

If you really want to know if God exists, then study His word, and ask Him. He will let you know. It may take time to get aligned and in tune to get an answer, but once you get in tune, you will get an answer. I promise that. Then you will now that God exists and you can move forward with that concept and following His will.

So what should happen, instead of debating the matter, everyone should just take the matter to God and ask Him and come back with your results. If you have questions or concerns you can ask them. If you aren't getting an answer, you can ask why and and what you have done to receive an answer on here. Then from there, we will have a forum of people who now know of the existence of God and can tell how they learned of the existence of God and how they felt. Or if someone has already learned of the existence of God, they can share their experience on how they came to learn of the existence of God.

It is all a personal thing. No one will know what I felt and what I feel when I pray and when I study and when I act and help and serve others, it must be experienced personally. The purpose of angels and prophets and scriptures and miracles is to help lead people to the water and to the invisible eternal laws of God but in the end, it is their choice on whether or not they want or choose to drink.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Aug, 2017 04:57 pm
OK, ok, you guys got your mission work credit in for the day. Give yourselves 2 gold stars
0 Replies
 
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Reply Thu 31 Aug, 2017 03:51 am
@bjacky,
Dear Bjacky, thanks for replying to this my thread - I think it is my thread, though memory might fail me, please wait, I will find out.

. . . . . . . . . . .

Yes, it is from me.
Quote:
Critical thinking on the existence of God
Forums: Religion, Philosophy, God, Atheism, Atheists
Discussion by Susmariosep
Posted 11/24/15 7:07 PM
Replies: 411
Views: 13,732
Last Post by Leadfoot
on 08/30/17 4:57 PM

https://able2know.org/user/susmariosep/topics/

Okay, you say:
Quote:
(1) Everything in existence is governed by divine law. The prophet Alma said:
"The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, (2) and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator... [etc., etc., etc.]


In your post there are two ways man comes to the existence of God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning, namely: (1) by His revelation, (2) by our thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the best thoughts of mankind from since the dawn of man's conscious intelligence.

In all my writing in web forums I always choose the second way, because with the first way there is still a human who claims to be receiving revelation from God, and that exposes him to self delusion, and us to self-illusion, with taking him seriously that he has got revelation from God.

I invite you most earnestly to join me with critical thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the best thoughts of mankind from since the dawn of man's conscious intelligence, to come to the existence of God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

I promise you, it will be a most enjoyable intellectual exercise.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 10:03 am
Can you prove the existence of God by means of a reductio ad absurdism argument rather than by evidence?
This is one of my favorite answers, courtesy of my friend David Moore. I couldn't have said it as well.

Quote:
I can, and it is easy. It is embarrassingly easy, but we all avoid encountering this proof as much as possible because it's so embarrassing. The fact is we can understand each other. The fact is that such understanding is allowed by a mysterious common ground. The fact is that that common ground encompasses the entire observable universe and that observations of that universe can be translated into language that can be transmitted. We can use Words to Make Sense because we live in a World Of Words. Yes, as participants in such a metaphorical formal system composed in Typographical Number Theory we cannot use the terms of the system to explain itself (kudos, Kurt), but our capacity to deduce the possibility of self-referential emergence of complexity as an explanation for the informatic nature of reality slams us headfirst into Fitch's paradox of knowability - if our cognition is a consequence (what a silly term in this context!) of a directionless chaos which constructed complexity as a characteristic of itself then how could we imagine that to be the case?

No computer can criticise its construction and nothing other than a creator can be inductive. We are inductive deducers - makers of meaning. In ourselves we perceive the capacity to make images. Therefore images are made. Therefore isomorphisms exist. Isomorphisms are made knowable by grammatical structures. Grammatical structures must be constructed in order for meaning to emerge. Such structures do not and can not emerge themselves from an environment which did not possess them to begin with, just as no life can possibly arise from anything that is not Life to begin with. To claim otherwise is to invoke circularity and arbitrariness.

Usually, we prefer that. However, if we do so we make all meaning ultimately self-referential. Thus, meaning could have no meaning. This is the definition of reductio ad absurdum. The very proof named here in the ancient (dead?) latin language is only possible because meaning exists a priori.

Grammar Therefore God. Isn't it ironic how our very use of such grammar reverses the causal order?
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Sep, 2017 12:20 pm
@Leadfoot,
Dear Leadfoot, you ask readers and posters here:
Quote:
Can you prove the existence of God by means of a reductio ad absurdism argument rather than by evidence?
This is one of my favorite answers, courtesy of my friend David Moore. I couldn't have said it as well.


May I just tell you that the socalled argument of reductio ad absurdum, it already assumes there is a correct argument, wherefore any other argument deviating essentially from the established correct argument is absurd.

Correct me if I am wrong, though.

For example, the argument of my birth is from my papa and mama, that is a correct argument that I came from my papa and mama; wherefore any other argument to the contrary is absurd.

What do you say, dear Leadfoot?

And I think you should always do your very own personal thinking with your very own brain, instead of name dropping.

You see, it is not always the case that socalled established thinkers are correct in everything they write about, because they cannot possibly be correct in everything you read in their writings.

Why? Because simple, they could not have known everything in the world outside their mind and/or inside their mind correctly, otherwise they would not be human but God Himself, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Now, in regard to the existence of God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning, I tend to see that the argument from evidence is the most compelling, and it goes like this:

1. You and I exist so also the physical universe.
2. We and the universe have a beginning.
3. Everything with a beginning has a cause to their beginning.
4. The chain of cause and effect cannot go on and on infinitely, because that is a fallacy.
5. Wherefore our existence, your and mine, and the existence of the universe itself, they are the evidence of God existing in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.
6. The evidence for God existing, it the evidence exists with our existence and the existence of the universe.
7. Therefore God exists in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

There, what do you say to that argument from evidence for God existing, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning?

Please present your objections, okay?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 12:15 am
@Leadfoot,
This 'proof' assumes that 'meaning exists a priori'. Even if that were the case, rather than merely being an expression of the hope that Shakespeare was wrong with his observation that ....'Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'...it cannot define the nature of the 'a priori'
.
On the basis that 'meaning is usage' (Wittgenstein), even the words 'meaning' and 'exist' depend on context. If you set up a' God context' those words take on that flavor. If you set up an 'Autopoietic behavoristic languaging ' context (Maturana), that is equally then case.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 01:00 am
@Leadfoot,
If grammar is God, I'm in trouble.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 08:35 am
@fresco,
Quote:
it cannot define the nature of the 'a priori'

You may have missed the point. 'A priori' is what you are observing right now as you and I write. To paraphrase - It is that it is.

And If it is meaningless, why do you feel so compelled to indulge in it? Have you made William S. your God?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 09:24 am
@Leadfoot,
I don't have gods, only people whose thoughts make sense to me.
I understand 'a priori' in the Kantian sense of the foundational axiom that we have 'knowledge independent of experience'.
I am not 'indulging in 'life' per se , I am indulging in a debate about 'the meaning of meaning'...which is not as futile as you might think, ffor example...

http://www.ifac.univ-nantes.fr/IMG/pdf/Putnam_-_The_Meaning_of_Meaning.pdf

or

http://www.enolagaia.com/M78BoL.html
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 12:43 pm
@fresco,
Golly, all that verbiage to sum up a Beatles tune - All You Need Is Love ... Tat ta da da daa...
0 Replies
 
 

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