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Critical thinking on the existence of God

 
 
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Reply Thu 7 Sep, 2017 02:06 pm
@fresco,
Dear Fresco, you say:
Quote:
This 'proof' assumes that 'meaning exists a priori'. Even if that were the case, rather than merely being an expression of the hope that Shakespeare was wrong with his observation that ....'Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'...it cannot define the nature of the 'a priori'

See? Dear Fresco, you have been fooled again and again and again with not thinking for yourself from your own brain, but with bringing in your authorities and that horribly selectively.

What a priori are you talking about?

What about experience if you have any at all, that you come from your papa and mama, and the chain cannot be stretched on and on in your stupid mind without end; it comes to an end, and that end is God, in concept as the first ever and the last forever creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Dear Fresco and all brains which are self-stifled, please think on your experience of your existence and the existence of everything with a beginning, and then from that point work with your now un-self-stifled brain, as to infer from logic that God exists, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Dear Fresco and your fellow brain-stifled colleagues, that is the most horrible self-emasculation of your brain, always names dropping, technical terms dropping, and empty un-decryptable verbiage.

Dear Fresco and company, that is why you don't think for yourself from your brain, but always binging up other brains, all in your horrible bad self-conditioning of names dropping, technical terms dropping, and empty un-decryptable verbiage.

You guys have no self-working brain, but you have made of yourselves robots to brains which you kowtow to all the time and everywhere, when and where you have to instead use your very own personal brain to think up your very own personal answers to all questions in life, like where do you come from.

Now, read the Annex below, and learn from it on how to think with your very own personal brain, by producing objections to the Annex.

Annex
Quote:
From Susmariosep just now in thread, "Can pseudo-intellectual philosophy sway the masses?"

Dear Brian, you say:
Quote:
I believe all order is information, and all information in the universe had to be a thought or idea in some mind before it could be stored in our observable universe as spin with boundaries and location. So, they owe their existence to another.


You know what?

You have just found the explanation for God existing, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything in with a beginning.

That is also what I see to be the case, namely: there is a mind like our mind but of an nth scale of existence and power, which I call God, in concept as the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

And the evidence is the fact that we have a mind which can think up in our mind all kinds of things, and here is the explanation on how our mind is the evidence to the existence of a mind that is thinking up everything with a beginning:

As we have a mind which thinks up all kinds of things, so also there is a mind that is nth times more intelligent and powerful as to have thought us up in its mind, us and the universe we live in.

And I call this mind, God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

Addressing atheists in a2k, what do you say about my explanation for God existing in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning, namely: from the evidence that is our mind which does think up all kinds of things, and this mind of ours has a beginning, wherefore it did not cause itself to have come to existence, but an entity brought it to existence, which I call God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

So, I will now, dear Brian, sit back and await with bated breath to witness how atheists here will react to my explanation for the existence of God, in concept as first and foremost the creator cause of everything with a beginning.

But I tell you, dear readers here, atheists will react with playing the chicken with its head chopped off.

Anyway, I am sitting back to witness how atheists will react, no matter that from past experience, they always react with running about like chickens with their heads chopped off.

0 Replies
 
cameronleon
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 21 Sep, 2017 10:15 pm
God is a being of a certain frequency who by some unknown reason created a universe in a different frequency at such a level that now this being needs his creation for his own subsistence.
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Reply Mon 25 Sep, 2017 01:49 pm
@cameronleon,
You say, Cameronieen:
"God is a being of a certain frequency who by some unknown reason created a universe in a different frequency at such a level that now this being needs his creation for his own subsistence."

That is a statement in that it contains words which together have the appearance of some almost semblance of communication, but when examined carefully, it is total nonsense.

Let me just break up your statement into clauses, then point out to you how foolish or senseless it is, nothing of any logic in it.

1. God is a being of a certain frequency
2. who by some unknown reason created a universe in a different frequency at such a level
3. that now this being needs his creation for his own subsistence.

Do you see, dear Cameronieen, that No. 3 does not follow from Nos. 1 and 2.

Unless you have any concept of God that is worth any attention from mankind, whatever words you piece together to describe God and His acts, it is bound to betray your nonsense brain.

For example, if your God is like a human father and a human mother, and these man and woman produced a baby, but there is famine in the land, so they have to eat their baby to stay alive.

That is no God at all, but mere human beings.

Your kind of thinking and writing is a testimony to a total vacuity of contact with truths, facts, logic, and the best thoughts of mankind from since the dawn of man's conscious intelligence.
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2017 08:51 am
@Susmariosep,
Hi Susmariosep
I'm a Christian, and my allegiance belongs only to Lord Jesus and nothing else in this universe. I became a Christian because of the morality of Lord Jesus, not because of the unrealistic magical stories about him.
In my 12yrs as a Christian I have often contemplated a realistic definition and existence of God. As you know, not all of us who identify themselves as Christians think alike. I find the definitions or assumptions of God by other self-declared Christians as unrealistic and illogical, but that's obviously my own opinion. Nevertheless, each to their own or whatever works for them I would say. But I have learnt as a Christian that there is a physical and spiritual side of God.
So here is my own conclusion to the existence of God question.
1. The meaning of the word 'god' is an immortal male being, the antonym would be a mere mortal male.
2. The meaning of the word 'goddess': an immortal female being
3. There are two sides to god or goddess, a physical side and a psychological(spiritual) side, two attributes somewhat similar to us.
4. Physical sides of god & goddess: god is the sky(space) and water throughout our universe, goddess is the earth(metal) and fire(combustion or electrical) throughout our universe.
I've learnt about these two physical attributes, male and female from universal human ancestral references, Christian references and the general public, and not from me if you are assuming I made up these physical references.
The reference to god's physicality being the sky(space), has been around for thousands of years from various cultures around the world from Europe to Asian, from the middle-East to Africa. There are also Christian references such as heavenly father etc etc.
The reference to goddess's physicality being the earth(metal) has also been around for thousands of years from various cultures around the world from Europe to Asia, from the Middle-East to Africa. I've often heard as I've grown up and today world, the general public mentioning mother earth, a very common thing to hear these days. So therefore, the sky(space) is the male(father) component, and the earth is the female(mother) component. If there was no sky(space) we wouldn't exist, or if there was no earth we wouldn't exist. We and all other lifeforms get our sustainance from the sky and the earth.

I do think that the sky(space) and the earth are immortal, especially compared to us humans anyway, so it would be somewhat logical to deem them as godly or goddessly.

I certainly don't expect people to get on their knees and worship the sky or earth either. As a Christian I only worship the spirit(psychology) of Lord Jesus and see these references only as physical ones not spiritual ones. As Lord Jesus said in the new testament John 4:24 that ...'God is spirit(psychological)'...
5. Spiritual(psychological) sides of god or goddess: For me as a Christian it can only be the spirit or psychology of family, the psychology or spirit of family is what created us, if one doesn't have a sense of family they don't have a sense of God, and are doomed to self-destruction. We must obviously have a sense of family in order to survive and prosper.
As a Christian, I believe that Lord Jesus is the human family spirit or psychology of God regardless of whether people say to me he existed or not. For me, he is the ultimate understanding of human family morality and psychology(spirituality). His moral teachings are the most superior in my mind. John 15:13 'Greater love has no one than this: to lay down (or risk) their lives for their friends'...
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Reply Sat 7 Oct, 2017 05:06 am
@Amoh5,
Dear Amoh5:

You say:
Quote:
So here is my own conclusion to the existence of God question.
1. The meaning of the word 'god' is an immortal male being, the antonym would be a mere mortal male.


First, I congratulate you for your insights into God.

Are you a member of a church where you go for Sunday service?

You see, most members of the church as headed by a pastor who is the official teacher and guide to his congregation in matters of doctrines and morals, they all generally I am sure don't take God to be literally a he like your papa and my papa,

For them, God is a spiritual being and is therefore not equipped with any components of human sexuality like being male or being female.

Please talk with your pastor about your insights.
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Oct, 2017 08:40 am
@Susmariosep,
Hi Susmariosep,
Good to talk to you again, I've been away from A2k for about 2yrs I think? I've been on facebook most of the time talking to family and friends.
I think A2k was getting a bit too theoretical and repetitious for me, so I went on facebook instead.
Conversing with family on facebook about practical daily concerns seemed to bring me back down to earth, usually just talking about our jobs, bills and family dramas. Sometimes it can be quite refreshing talking with people who are not concerned with theology or theoretical science. They can seem like very shallow and face valuing type people to us intellectuals, almost like children they are, always concerned with what their eyes can see, very materialistic but in an innocent way I should add.
When I read some of my old posts/comments to you, I thought who the heck wrote this, this person is an uncoordinated scatter-brain haha, its funny that the biggest critics of ourselves are ourselves. Nevertheless I do try not to use too many unnecessary words, unnecessary long scripts can be very boring (but sorry about the rambling)
Getting back to your discussion, I thought I'd use a more down to earth academic approach rather than a romanticized or magical approach. Something that even an atheist could understand without any supersticious or mystical explanations.
The academic idea of the word god is usually a male who is immortal or not capable of dying. It obviously can't be a human being or any other lifeform because they are all capable of dying. The word goddess is also similar to female immortality.
So therefore it can only be the sky(space) and the earth which our ancestors have acknowledged genders to these two entities. The sky(space) is a male and the earth(metal) is a female. There isn't anything magical about the earth and sky except that they support our survival.
When the topic of God or Lord Jesus is brought up, mythological thinking people start imagining unrealistic possiblities and magical powers.
In my own opinion God and Lord Jesus are all about human family morality, and to whom that we give our allegiance to, ourselves? our parents? other people?
I sometimes go to my mothers church(that is Catholic which I was brought up in as a child) and other Christian churches when I have the chance to. My theological perspective is not controlled by priests or pastors, I prefer my own judgement on spiritual matters because my allegiance belongs only to Lord Jesus Christ and nothing else in this universe.
The only magical powers I get as a Christian is knowing between good and bad, and having a positive attitude towards life through Lord Jesus. Ultimately, Christianity for me is the power of positive well thinking...
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Oct, 2017 06:35 pm
@Amoh5,
When I say that the sky (or space) is male and therefore godly I am not implying anything mystical or magical,
Just like the earth is female and goddessly, there is nothing magical about the earth and sky other than the fact that they give us physical life, we can't have a conversation with them because they will never respond to us in a human vocal manner.
But I do very much think that the sky is the father of all living things, and the earth is the mother of all living things, but this is only physical talk and definitions, the spirituality or psychology of God(sky) is a different matter. When bringing up the topic of God, I know a lot of people like to wish for unrealistic possiblities and beings with super magical powers which is total fantasy , but I'm trying to explain a realistic definition of God thats ridiculously right in front of our faces.
We get air and water from the sky, and food(plants) and warmth(fire combustion or electrical) from the earth.
Most living things represent the female earth and the male sky. As human males we are merely representatives of the sky, and human females are merely representatives of the earth.
Even though I acknowledge these physical metaphores between sky and earth, I don't worship them or do anything silly as trying to communicate with them expecting a human vocal response from them.
In my mind the sky or empty space throughout the universe is the physicality of God,
And the earth or metal throughout the universe is the physicality of Goddess.
But as a Christian I am not concerned about the physicality of God which is the sky, but rather I am concerned about the psychology or spirituality of God which I learn through Lord Jesus...
I just wish there was a much easy and simple way of explaining this without using too many words and metaphores....
Susmariosep
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Oct, 2017 08:51 pm
@Amoh5,
Dear Amoh5, you bring my mind to the Chinese mystical philosophy of the Yin and Yang, with your exposition on God as He, etc.

See my thinking about God addressed as male, etc., which is all in a as you put it, metaphorical sense, here is the link:

https://able2know.org/topic/394567-11#post-6517160,

where I invested some quality time to chastise atheists, who want to play fools with bringing up God as a He, in order to distract readers from the issue of God exists or not.

In which issue I have shown them that they are suffering from the what I call, the disease of Acquired Intelligence Deficiency Syndrome.

The atheist lot there is a very rowdy rabble, they have to act like a rabble: because I exposed them to be altogether into nothing of any sensible reasoning in re God exists or not, but all pure evasions, like aping their master, one Bertrand Russell who taught them how to lie by bringing in ridiculous analogies to God, for example from the old rascal Russell, that God is just the same as an orbiting teapot in space.

Dear Amoh5, Come over here, and you will see that atheists are all into nothing but evasions, like with after their old rascal of a liar, one Bertrand Russell, who taught them to use insulting language on God, instead of examining the issue of God exists or not, and present their genuine rebuttal if any at all they are capable of.

Now, today's atheists call God a flying spaghetti monster, that is the kind of brain vacuity and inanity they have to resort to: because they cannot have anything of solid argument against God.

Quote:
From Amoh5

In my mind the sky or empty space throughout the universe is the physicality of God,
And the earth or metal throughout the universe is the physicality of Goddess.
But as a Christian I am not concerned about the physicality of God which is the sky, but rather I am concerned about the psychology or spirituality of God which I learn through Lord Jesus...

Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 09:41 am
@Susmariosep,
Wow! I'm impressed Susmariosep with your choice of my words that you quoted me at the ending of your previous reply! Your very perceptive indeed! you must have a few tricks up your sleeve to have a perception like that. You seem like a very academic type person with a graceful composure, because I know from experience that one really needs to have a peaceful state of mind in order to analyze and criticize objectively, without allowing emotions to cloud your judgement. I can also be like that sometimes when I'm not stressed out by the imperfections of daily life.
I know I'm not your regular Christian that tries to paint a picture of God as mystical and magical, or an all powerful being whos secretly watching us, I think that type of stuff is total fantasy and wishful thinking, but I do think we all have a natural degree of wishful thinking, some have more than others I would think. But I don't think its a crime to be wishful(or hopeful) as long as it doesn't cause us to disrespect people or human life.
Before I became a Christian I was a very angry stressed out young man, things in my life were just going magically wrong for some reason or rather, but I felt really disenchanted about myself and other people, gradually falling towards that dark bottomless pit of insanity. Because my attitude as a non-Christian thinking person was that if I'm gonna go down I'll go down fighting. Yes, I did have a church upbringing as a youngster but I didn't really take it seriously because it was just something my parents told me to do otherwise I'm I 'd get a good thrashing. During the hard times of my life before becoming a Christian, I started thinking about God and Lord Jesus for some reason trying to make sense of my stressful life at that time looking for answers. I guess I really needed something to maintain my sanity and sense of morale, so I thought about Lord Jesus and his guidance on morality towards the value of human life. His character is like an honourable protective father and all human beings are his children. So I thought, I'll give my allegiance to a doctrine and character like him, who supports my well-being, my family's and my fiends, so how could I lose? I started to have a sense of peace towards myself and other people, and my life started getting better. My negative thoughts about myself and other people started getting better as well.
I wouldn't give my allegiance to anything else in this universe except only Lord Jesus because sometimes it can be a really unpredictable, deceptive and dangerous place to live in. I wouldn't even give allegiance to myself either, because I'm just an angry nutter without the guidance of Lord Jesus. He's like the ultimate human psychologist in some ways, very informative and enlightening. Yes I've read all the conspiracy theories about him that he never existed and all that stuff, but I really don't care because I know in my mind that his ideals are the greatest morality ideals humans will ever come across.
I don't believe all scriptures of the bible are God breathed, or are all the words of God which Paul supposedly declared. For me, only the words of Lord Jesus are the only true words of God because he is the only true teacher of God in my mind. I don't trust Paul or anyone else in the bible, only the words of Lord Jesus. In John 4:24 he says God is spirit... and to me, he is the spirit of God, which is about truth and family ethics. All living things are created by the spirit or sense of family, like mum and dad etc etc. without a sense of family life cannot survive let alone be created. Finally, as a Christian I don't believe in defenceless, I do believe that we must protect ourselves, our loved ones and innocent people even if it means killing such offenders if necessary. It doesn't make sense to me that Lord Jesus expects or would expect us to be defenceless especially if we have women and children to protect.
So I suppose critical thinking would have to be applied to whether the spirit or psychology of God actually exists.
I have encountered self-declared atheists before on this A2k website, and they can be really disrespectful and ridiculing. But I'm not phased at all by them, and I think its because my allegiance belongs only to Lord Jesus. In some ways I think these so-called atheists are into self-worship which I used to be somewhat tied up in. The biggest problem with the self-worship ideal is that when these types of people start making mistakes and realize they are not perfect, they start punishing themselves or other people, and in worst cases even suicide. But I do agree with atheists when they get annoyed with unrealist descriptions of God by a lot of theists, especially those bible-bashing ones, they annoy me too. They try and present the bible as if it's a text-book of science, taking the bible literally is the usual term given towards such people. I'm not saying everything in the bible is wrong, I'm just saying that a lot of theists misinterpret the bible which is definitely annoying. But I suppose we all make mistakes whether we are atheists or theists, no one is perfect, but I think its actually a question of whether we can cope with and manage our imperfections so that we don't lose our sense of respect and value towards human life...
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 03:36 pm
Laughing What's this? ....an ecumenical council of two...or merely two soapbox preachers with no audience, playing up to each other?
Susmariosep
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 04:34 pm
Dear Amoh5, thanks for your kind words.

Now you tell me:
Quote:
Before I became a Christian I was a very angry stressed out young man, things in my life were just going magically wrong for some reason or rather, but I felt really disenchanted about myself and other people, gradually falling towards that dark bottomless pit of insanity.


History tells us that in a normal lifetime a person goes through succeeding phases, through them the person comes to terms with life, and then devotes himself to achieve some useful end to himself and also to society.

And what is that useful end to himself and to society?

What about bearing and bringing up at least one kid, who will one day also achieve some end useful to himself and to society?
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 04:57 pm
@fresco,
I'm not at all impressed with your sad pretentious mentality Fresco, I think your a sad excuse for a human being with an attitude like that. If you need someone to ridicule you should look in the mirror, don't blame me for your insecure loneliness, you do it to yourself, you're the one looking for an audience. Try and move up in the world and get along with people, its not that difficult, because with that attitude one day someone's gonna eventually knock your lights out, there's no glory in the ridiculing game just doom and gloom, be good to yourself for a change, you'll be amazed...
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 07:11 pm
@Susmariosep,
Your welcome Susmariosep, I also appreciate the fact that I have not received any rude or disrespectful comments from you, I revere people like that, thank you.
Sorry about the harsh words towards Fresco, he seems to know which buttons of mine to push. I've known him on A2k since 2014 he was actually the first person I ever spoke to on A2k, he's a self-proclaimed atheist who doesn't come across to me as very sociable or happy. But thats no excuse for him to behave that way. He may be a young fulla looking to score points for his low self-esteem.
I don't have any hang-ups about atheists because you get the good respectful ones and the bad disrespectful ones just like you would with theists also. As I always say, whatever works for you if it keeps you well and happy then stick with it.
I met a really good decent atheist named Hugh Cedric on another forum, he was a real joy to converse with, very informative and witty, you don't meet many of them though, but they are there somewhere.
As far as children are concerned, I don't have any of my own at the moment, but I do get swamped by my nephews and nieces of my siblings including grandnieces and nephews, they're full of dramas and joys that you get from kids.
Maybe I'll just get a clone of myself if the law allows it, just to freak everyone out? yes I'm just joking...
Glennn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Oct, 2017 09:35 pm
@Amoh5,
Quote:
Sorry about the harsh words towards Fresco, he seems to know which buttons of mine to push.

When you no longer doubt yourself and what you know, then no one can push your buttons. You only attack when you feel you've been attacked. And you only feel you've been attacked when you feel you've been made vulnerable. And you only feel vulnerable when you doubt yourself and what you know.

If you have a red car, and someone tells you that it's blue, what is the proper response?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 12:04 am
@Amoh5,
Sus is playing games with you. Like the majority on this forum, he is not interested in your long parochial diatribes about your concept of Christianity. He merely craves an audience (as you do) and has recently resorted to a bit of flattery or pseudo 'love thy enemy' tactics to that end. If he were genuine in that respect, lets hear him condemn your aggressive 'knock my lights out' response. Wink
I make no claims about 'morality'. I merely show a concern about the infestation of respectable forums such as this by 'Holy Joes', on self reinforcement exercises. There are plenty of other forums for that activity with which sus is familiar, having been thrown off several of them !




Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 03:30 am
@fresco,
I didn't say I'd knock your lights out Fresco, I was merely referring to your attitude of ridicule towards Sus and I.
Because I know for a fact, people who go around playing the ridicule game eventually bump into the wrong person then all hell breaks loose. Like I said Fresco, theres no glory in playing the ridiculing game, just doom and gloom
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 06:48 am
@Amoh5,
Laughing The 'wrong person ' eh !....another covert threat !
But no 'glory' anticipated in opposing preaching, or pointing out the dynamics of pseudo-communication, irrespective of the concept of 'doom' a preacher may have invested in as part of their parochial belief system.


Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 09:13 am
@fresco,
You shouldn't be whining at me like a sook Fresco, I'm just an innocent bystander here, you were the one who came onto this thread and started mud-slinging at Sus and I, what's wrong with your head? Do you suffer from some sort of paranoid psychosis or something? Theres no way you or anybody else in this world can convince me of anything whatsoever, my allegiance belongs only to Lord Jesus, who does your allegiance belong to? maybe that'll give you something more constructive to think about
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 09:23 am
@Amoh5,
No ! You are not 'an innocent bystander' at all. You are a would be soapbox preacher beguiled by the apparent 'flattery' of another like you.

The title of this thread is 'critical thinking on the existence of God'. So lets hear a bit of 'criticism' from you. Otherwise what are you doing here ? BTW my own contribution to the debate is that 'existence' is relative to need, and not an absolute, since the concept of 'absolute' already begs the main question. So as an atheist I argue that 'God exists' for believers because the 'God' concept is useful to them, whereas for atheists, it is useless. This is a valid form of 'critical thinking' rejected by sus because his critical faculties cannot cope with the fact that all 'concepts' whether they be 'rocks' 'gods' or 'existence' are simply human psychological constructs which assist joint human projects organized via human language.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Oct, 2017 09:57 am
@Amoh5,
As for the concept of 'allegiance', whether it be to what is probably a semi mythical character called Jesus, or a country, or a football team, it always involves suspensio of 'critical faculties' or 'sublimation of self'. But meditators claim to go one step further by dissipation of 'self' thereby avoiding the pitfalls of 'allegience'. Read (e.g.) Krishnamurti's rejection of 'religion' if you are looking for spirituality without allegience, and throw away your soapbox.!
 

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