Critical thinking on the existence of God

@fresco,

Quote:

I suggest to all contributors that 'critical thinking' should first be applied to the concept of 'existence' per se. When you have sorted that out ( Wink ) you might find that understanding the use of a 'God concept is pretty trivial.

Superman exists in Metropolis. Where does Ahura Mazda exist, or subsist, or whichever (haven't finished Mary Boyce's books yet.)

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@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Thankyou for your earlier 'compliment' . You would do well to keep manden handy, because compared to his, your own vacuous platitudes look positively scintillating !

Fresco...it has been years since you have said anything of value in this forum. Mostly, you post to dazzle.

You don't.

You just do not make much sense. ..and about the only person you are impressing...

...is yourself.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

You just do not make much sense. ..and about the only person you are impressing...

...is yourself.

No, I'm impressed.

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

. . . They, if they are intellectually honest, would require knowing what the purpose was behind the pain they endured. . .

Agreed. Why would God not simply destroy the Edenic rebels and start over, perhaps with a race of robots incapable of contrary action?

I submit there are several answers, not the least of which is had he done so, you and I would never have been born.

How about the insinuation that God is a liar, not having man's best interests in his purpose? How long might it take to resove that issue? Quite a while, apparently, for it has been the subject of recent debate in another thread.

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@neologist,

Not the least of which is that it's a bullsh*t, made-up, bronze age fairy tale, by people whose writing skills were seriously lacking.

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@Tuna,

Quote:

Superman exists in Metropolis. Where does Ahura Mazda exist, or subsist, or whichever (haven't finished Mary Boyce's books yet.)

Good point ! Better than most here can get their heads round ! Smile

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@neologist,

Quote:

How about the insinuation that God is a liar, not having man's best interests in his purpose? How long might it take to resove that issue? Quite a while, apparently, for it has been the subject of recent debate in another thread.

You seem very absorbed by the figure of 6000 years. I'm sure there is a reason why God waits for whatever period he does, but history is replete with those who thought they knew the logic behind some number and wound up looking silly for their predictions. 144,000? Who knows who sits at the table.

The only time period we know about in which to resolve anything is the span of years of our individual lives. Best let God decide when to call 'game over' and who to invite.

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@Tuna,

There are about 70,000 Parsees in India, chiefly in Mumbai and other parts of Gujerat. The number surviving in Iran is just an estimate, because they tend not to advertise their "pagan" belief. There may be another 80,000 to 100,000 in central Asia. Ahura Mazda would "subsist" in their minds and ritualistic practices, and a good deal more than "Superman" does in Metropolis.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

There are about 70,000 Parsees in India, chiefly in Mumbai and other parts of Gujerat. The number surviving in Iran is just an estimate, because they tend not to advertise their "pagan" belief. There may be another 80,000 to 100,000 in central Asia. Ahura Mazda would "subsist" in their minds and ritualistic practices, and a good deal more than "Superman" does in Metropolis.

What you're saying is true. Mary Boyce said Zoroastrianism isn't widely understood because the surviving members of the faith (it's the oldest living religion!) have a history of persecution and are defensive about talking to outsiders.

I haven't gotten a handle yet on what they think Ahura Mazda is. The name itself implies "mind." I've been wanting to say that Zoroastrianism celebrates the expansion of the human mind that accompanied the invention of the solar calendar and the ability to store grain, but Boyce says no. Zoroaster didn't talk much about agriculture. He talked about cows, which signifies that we need to look back to Central Asian nomads to understand Zoroaster's worldview.

What I took from fresco's post is that we should probably start with understanding what a particular believer is saying and recognize that God does exist in that narrative (in the same way Superman exists in Metropolis). If we then want to judge whether that God also exists in the actual world, things might become complicated. We might find that to some extent, what they're calling "God" is real, but the surrounding narrative is wrong. For instance, with the Sun-god, the sun exists, but we don't believe it will answer our prayers.

My hypothesis about the Christian God is that it's partially a projection of human consciousness. So if a person says that God doesn't exist, are they also saying that human consciousness doesn't exist? In the case of some atheists, the answer to that is: yes.

I'm saying we can't lump all atheists together any more than we can lump all believers together. That's over-simplifying. I've seen you make this same point, so I realize I'm not telling you anything new.

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@Logical Christian,

Quote:

One promise is that no matter how horrible and wretched our situation, it is fleeting and all of our sufferings will pay tenfold in the next stage of our being.

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@layman,

Old Blind Willie Johnson knew what kinda questions to ask, I figure. Them dudes at NASA thought the same, cause they sent this recordin off into outer space, hopin they could get an answer, ya know?:

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@layman,

They didn't send out Blind Sonny Terry's question:

Crow Jane, Crow Jane
What makes you hold your head so high?
You realize now, honey?
You gonna lay down and die.

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@layman,

It was always a source of wonderment to me that the black man who had suffered capture, enslavement and discrimination at the hand of the white man would then embrace his tormentors' belief in God.

I mean, WTF, there must be somethin' at work there. I recon them NASA scientists could explain it an tell ya that it's some kinda evolutionary adaption for survival or some **** like that. I mean they ARE rocket scientists...

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@Tuna,

Ultimately there is ONLY the narrative with respect to 'existence'. The terminology of scientists is no exception. What we call 'scientific progress',is the constant revision of the narrative according to our shifting 'needs'. Yesterdays 'indivisible atom' becomes todays 'compendium of particles' some of which have life spans of less than than a millionth of a second....assuming of course we know what 'a particle' means these days given considerations such as non-locality. And who knows what tomorrows narrative will bring as the 'unknown' 98% of the universe gradually yields to human questioning ? Who knows what 'eternal' might mean given the deconstruction of 'time' as an independent dimension ?

'Man is the measure of all things' PROTAGORAS ...but the first level of measurement ....the 'nominal'....is the assignment of 'thinghood' !

1 Reply

@fresco,

fresco wrote:

Ultimately there is ONLY the narrative with respect to 'existence'. The terminology of scientists is no exception. What we call 'scientific progress',is the constant revision of the narrative according to our shifting 'needs'. Yesterdays 'indivisible atom' becomes todays 'compendium of particles' some of which have life spans of less than than a millionth of a second....assuming of course we know what 'a particle' means these days given considerations such as non-locality. And who knows what tomorrows narrative will bring as the 'unknown' 98% of the universe gradually yields to human questioning ? Who knows what 'eternal' might mean given the deconstruction of 'time' as an independent dimension ?

Yep. But isn't the statement

Quote:

There is ONLY the narrative with respect to "existence."

making use of the verb to be? Would you say that's also a narrative? Or are you saying the truth transcends language?

Quote:

'Man is the measure of all things' PROTAGORAS ...but the first level of measurement ....the 'nominal'....is the assignment of 'thinghood' !

I'm not sure what you mean. We measure the properties of a thing. Is the nominal aspect of a thing measureable?

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@Leadfoot,

Leadfoot wrote:

It was always a source of wonderment to me that the black man who had suffered capture, enslavement and discrimination at the hand of the white man would then embrace his tormentors' belief in God.

I mean, WTF, there must be somethin' at work there. I recon them NASA scientists could explain it an tell ya that it's some kinda evolutionary adaption for survival or some **** like that. I mean they ARE rocket scientists...

Stockholm syndrome. Survival instinct. Very evolutionary. In those days, non-believers could be killed by Jeebus-loving, god-fearing believers for no other reason than non-belief. Wink

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@Leadfoot,

Leaadfoot wrote:

You seem very absorbed by the figure of 6000 years. . .

Written history covers only about 5000 +/- years. The Bible covers 6040, if my count is correct. Many people round out the biblical number to 6000. So, I'm really just giving it my best guess.

Hope that helps.

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@FBM,

Quote:

Stockholm syndrome. Survival instinct. Very evolutionary. In those days, non-believers could be killed by loving believers for no other reason than non-belief. Wink

I think the image of an innocent man being lynched and subsequently rising up to judge the world became a symbol of hope.

Insert any of a multitude of heart wrenching gospel songs.

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@Tuna,

Liberation theology FTW, eh?

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@FBM,

FBM wrote:

Liberation theology FTW, eh?

I don't know what FTW stands for, but yea, Christianity has always been about liberation.

1 Reply

Critical thinking on the existence of God

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