Critical thinking on the existence of God

@Frank Apisa,

Let's take God out of the picture for a moment. Religious people are usually the ones that are saddled with trying to prove the existence of God... and they're usually horrible at doing it ;-) Here's my logic:

First-- Everything in this universe is made of different combinations of the same 'stuff'. We could go on for a while here about the physics... but the 92 naturally occurring elements consist of the same types of sub-atomic particles, which release the same types of energy when they're smashed, they interact with invisible fields like Higgs which may 'give' them mass... so on and so forth. But the point is that all we can see and touch, and much of what we can't, is essentially just extremely complex arrangements of the same energy.

Second-- This energy is eternal. There's absolutely no chance that it came from 'nothing'. A point of singularity... sure. An energy potential... why not? But the almost incomprehensible fact remains, that this energy has ALWAYS existed in some form or another. It can be light, it can be Mars, it can be you and me-- but it can't be created or destroyed.

Finally-- We know for a fact that matter can become conscious of self, have a capacity for intelligent thought, reason and an ability to 'create' other objects. There is no disputing the fact that some of the matter in this universe is conscious at this moment and reading this sentence, so why can't the rest of it be-- or have been? Given the infinite timeline and what we know about mathematical probability, I'm arguing that it is almost a certainty.

I know my logic won't be followed by everyone, but I believe it is a valid conclusion.

We've already begun the process of building organisms from the ground up, so there's no reason to think that some higher intelligence couldn't have done the same! Is it that much of a stretch to think that somewhere in the infinite (think about that... infinite!) past, there could have been an even more advanced intelligence come into being?

Religious beliefs are a whole different can of worms-- and they really cloud the issue of an 'intelligent designer' and cause many to just walk away from the idea altogether.

PS-- I made the mistake of posting a link last time, so that's why my name is a bit different now. :-/

2 Replies

@Logical Christian,

So, you're talking about some higher intelligence that is working within the physical universe.

Ok.

This description negates one of the theological definitions of a being or entity with a higher intelligence that created the universe, however.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

My belief is that the 'stuff' of reality is a form of energy, and has always been and always will be-- and a certain part of that 'stuff' is intelligent and is God. There was no creating it. This eternal aspect of 'God' falls in-line with many theologies.

At some point, a portion of this energy was organized intentionally and purposefully into the physical, biological form we find ourselves in-- along with all of the galaxies and what have you that comprise the 'physical universe' that you were referring to.

We can’t see most of the universe, and astronomers and quantum scientists are discovering that the VAST majority of matter doesn’t even seem to follow the conventional laws of physics– as if it were in another realm altogether! Dark matter, dark energy, etc.– we don’t even have any solid theories yet on some of the discoveries we’re making.

So don’t believe for a second that there couldn’t have been a higher intelligence come into being, that can manipulate energy into different forms, and might exist primarily in the larger part of the universe that we don’t even understand yet. Just because it doesn’t have to eat Cheerios to obtain energy, doesn’t mean it’s make-believe. We exist in “flesh and blood”, biological bodies– but remember that we’re still just composed of energy. There’s no reason to believe that the stuff of our consciousness couldn’t exist in some non-biological form– most energy doesn’t.

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@Fil Albuquerque,

I think the entire post from lc was removed. Now every one will think we were talking to ourselves . . .

Well, it looks like he's back.

1 Reply

@neologist,

I was banned for 30 days for posting the link you tried to warn me about. Since it was my first post, I felt I didn't have anything to lose by forming a new presence under a slightly modified name.

I won't make that mistake again ;-)

0 Replies

@Logical Christian,

Quote:

My belief is that the 'stuff' of reality is a form of energy, and has always been and always will be-- and a certain part of that 'stuff' is intelligent and is God. There was no creating it. This eternal aspect of 'God' falls in-line with many theologies

I'm OK with that and much of what else you said about the probability of God's existence. Other than casual passing the time with others discussing that probability, (that I'm already convinced of) I'm long past the point of questioning his existence.

Having thought about it quite a lot, the idea that we are here by accident is absurd. An intelligent agent (we can call him God) was obviously involved in our creation. Once you get there, the question that interests me now is:

God exists, so what? What do you think he's up to here? Why are we here?

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Our OP asked about belief/disbelief in God. I'd hate to hijack this thread with a different tangent, but I'll touch on some of my thoughts.

Your questions are the natural next step in any discussion of human creation, and I'm sure you understand that the 'mindset' of any self-existing, eternal entity responsible for the creation of our physical universe is nearly impossible for us to wrap our heads around-- I still struggle with the very idea of infinity!

For those of us that seek a more literal truth that transcends mere 'feelings' and 'faith', all we can do is approach things analytically, look for clues in the world around us and the texts that have been left by the ancients. But I believe that our God cares for us, and makes himself known... endowing us with the capacity to humanize and personify him in our relationship.

One thing I constantly remind myself is that like scientific fact, spiritual truth hasn't changed over time... just our understanding of it. We are constantly shedding old scientific ideas in light of new findings, and I believe it is OK to do the same with religion. Obviously that's not the way religion has portrayed its theologies. Ever.

But in the midst of an informational revolution, we have the luxury of perspective-- the ability to glance back at the whole of human history in juxtaposition of the sum of human knowledge that lies at our fingertips.

One of the overarching themes that have permeated human spirituality is the idea that our actions in this fleeting, temporary existence will have a profound impact on the next. Hindus, Muslims, tribal groups... you name it. Realizing this, I took the lead of Jefferson and Tolstoy and decided to rip the life and teaching of Jesus free from the chaff that surrounded it. Doing that allowed me to understand that this was his basic message too. Jesus winnowed down God's rubric to two basic traits... love God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Criteria that could easily be applied to anyone at anytime in history, regardless of the details of their beliefs or culture.

On top of that... his arrival was perfectly timed and has steered the course of humanity in undeniable ways. For better or worse, belief in 'him' has sculpted government, global exploration, settlement patterns, and even art, architecture and education. Rome, Popes, Inquisitions, Renaissance, Reformation, missionaries, and even the struggle over Jerusalem between two groups that 'deny' him in some way or another are directly attributable to his life.

I've got to stop myself, because we could drink many pots of coffee and tap several kegs of beer and still just scratch the surface of 'what I think'-- and I understand that your thoughts and those of many others are just as extensive.

But to answer your questions more directly:

What do I think he's up to? Delighting in creation. Why are we here? This life is an immersive taste of existence and moreover a test. We will be judged at some point based on the content of our character to determine our more permanent future and access to unimaginable worlds to come!

2 Replies

@Logical Christian,

So how does the God of your concept explain the 6000 +/- years of human misery?

(According to written history)

IMO, he has provided not only the explanation, but a hope. But, I'd like to see your thoughts.

1 Reply

@Logical Christian,

Logical Christian wrote:

My belief is that the 'stuff' of reality is a form of energy, and has always been and always will be-- and a certain part of that 'stuff' is intelligent and is God. There was no creating it. This eternal aspect of 'God' falls in-line with many theologies.

...

So don’t believe for a second that there couldn’t have been a higher intelligence come into being...

It's contradictory to say that God is eternal but at the same time he came into being.

1 Reply

@neologist,

Only a short statement :
The (real) creator of the universe never interfered here in the last 6000 years (recognizable) .

0 Replies

@manden,

manden wrote:

Sorry , that is my best , and it is very true .
If you grasp it or not .

No problem.

If it is your "best"...I understand.

1 Reply

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/ffdac7b3fa35024593ffb72751ca7eb5.jpg.gif

0 Replies

@Logical Christian,

Logical Christian wrote:

Let's take God out of the picture for a moment. Religious people are usually the ones that are saddled with trying to prove the existence of God... and they're usually horrible at doing it ;-) Here's my logic:

First-- Everything in this universe is made of different combinations of the same 'stuff'. We could go on for a while here about the physics... but the 92 naturally occurring elements consist of the same types of sub-atomic particles, which release the same types of energy when they're smashed, they interact with invisible fields like Higgs which may 'give' them mass... so on and so forth. But the point is that all we can see and touch, and much of what we can't, is essentially just extremely complex arrangements of the same energy.

Second-- This energy is eternal. There's absolutely no chance that it came from 'nothing'. A point of singularity... sure. An energy potential... why not? But the almost incomprehensible fact remains, that this energy has ALWAYS existed in some form or another. It can be light, it can be Mars, it can be you and me-- but it can't be created or destroyed.

Finally-- We know for a fact that matter can become conscious of self, have a capacity for intelligent thought, reason and an ability to 'create' other objects. There is no disputing the fact that some of the matter in this universe is conscious at this moment and reading this sentence, so why can't the rest of it be-- or have been? Given the infinite timeline and what we know about mathematical probability, I'm arguing that it is almost a certainty.

I know my logic won't be followed by everyone, but I believe it is a valid conclusion.

We've already begun the process of building organisms from the ground up, so there's no reason to think that some higher intelligence couldn't have done the same! Is it that much of a stretch to think that somewhere in the infinite (think about that... infinite!) past, there could have been an even more advanced intelligence come into being?

Religious beliefs are a whole different can of worms-- and they really cloud the issue of an 'intelligent designer' and cause many to just walk away from the idea altogether.

PS-- I made the mistake of posting a link last time, so that's why my name is a bit different now. :-/

LC...we do not even know what "the universe" is. All we can work with is what we know of "the universe"...and we may know much, much, much less than we think.

In any case, I suggest as respectfully as possible that one cannot get to "it is more likely that there is a GOD than that there is not" via reason, logic, or science.

You are attempting to do it...and you are failing.

Conversely, one cannot get to "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there are" via reason, logic, or science.

Anyone suggesting either...is doing nothing more than blindly guessing at the REALITY...and then putting lots of lipstick on that guess.

1 Reply

@Logical Christian,

Quote:

What do I think he's up to? Delighting in creation. Why are we here? This life is an immersive taste of existence and moreover a test. We will be judged at some point based on the content of our character to determine our more permanent future and access to unimaginable worlds to come!

That gets closer to what I had in mind. But I want to go further toward the perspective of God, as in - What's in it for HIM?

Christians mostly reply to that question with claptrap like: "God is OMNIPOTENT! He has no needs. He loves us UNCONDITIONALLY! " That sort of thing is more destructive of understanding 'why we are here' than anything else I can think of.

More later, mundane earthly matters call...

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@Frank Apisa,

I think , you understand nothing - and almost the whole mankind , too .
It is possible - but for this corrupt and ill mankind incredibly difficult -
to recognize at the existence of the universe that the real creator of the
universe (more of him is not recognizable) really exists !

1 Reply

@manden,

manden wrote:

I think , you understand nothing - and almost the whole mankind , too .
It is possible - but for this corrupt and ill mankind incredibly difficult -
to recognize at the existence of the universe that the real creator of the
universe (more of him is not recognizable) really exists !

Stop trying, Maden.

You are never going to top that other post for incomprehensibility.

Although to be fair...this was a good attempt.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Sorry , that was your chance for the truth .

1 Reply

@manden,

Maybe you should focus on coherence, truth is subjective, your take on it especially so.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

What I said is the truth . I have recognized at the existence of the universe
that the real really exists . Means I know it .

2 Replies

@manden,

Just show some evidence, and we're good to go.

0 Replies

Critical thinking on the existence of God

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