Favorite Hero and antihero in History

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There was a thread in the books forum. I thought I'd make one for here

My most beloved antihero is Shabbetai Tzvi. That man was crazy. He was a Jew and very learned. But when he was about 18 he began to become very bipolar. When he was manic he would eat chelev -- forbidden fat -- speak the tetragrammaton, and do other crazy stuff. Eventually he began declaring he was the messiah. But when he was in a normal state he was fine.

He wanted help and he went to this guy named Nathan and explained what was going on. Nathan slept on it and then had a vision. He told him he really was the messiah. They went on a pilgrimage and during this time Nathan convinced Shabbetai it was true. So now Shabbetai's getting worse and worse. He marries a prostitute at one point. He also marries a fish. He declares he's actually God incarnate. And people are believing this. He had many in the Jewish world captivated.

He said he would take the crown of the Turkish ruler. He declared all fast days to be festivals. People all over are having visions of him as messiah. Everywhere he goes there's a crowd of people following him. He goes to the ruler, demands the crown, and is arrested. A while later he's given the option to become Muslim or die. So he converts.

Nathan, his prophet, says he had to go down to a dark and evil place so that he could bring good, and that he was struggling for good. Some people followed him in conversion but practised Sabbatean Judaism secretly. He was a very tormented guy, and Nathan got him to believe himself.

I honestly can't think of any true historical heroes. I'm sure someone else can.

Dauer

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Daniel Parke

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My favourite hero would be my father, who in spite of a difficult childhood grew into a faithful husband and loving father, who provided for his family dutifully all his life and then he died.

What makes a hero? It is not the split second impulse, but the lifelong daily sacrifice and dedication to the welfare of others. At least that is my opinion.

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And as anti-hero, well, the first one that comes to mind would be George W Bush, how about it?

W was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but did poorly at school. Rather than going to Vietnam he chose to serve in the National guard where his father's friends got him into flying school in spite of his low grades. He showed his gratitude for this hard fought victory by deserting and his fathers friends covered for him.

How he got through Harvard, I do not know, but he can't have learned much because he proceeded by running a few companies into the ground and becoming an alcoholic until he was taken on board by his father's friends, who later handed him the presidency despite him being defeated at the polls, after which he set about ruining the US economy and the international prestige and security of the US.

Looking back at his track record, the only heroic thing he ever did was beating alcoholism, but even that he did not do on his own.

Finally, a little know incident: This happened when his father was in the White House (as vice president I believe). W visited the Gambia to celebrate the opening of the new airport (extended by the US in order to have an alternative landing spot for the space shuttle, sic). The Gambian authorites had mistaken W for his father (same name, easy mistake to make) and prepared a grand reception. W was treated to a performance of traditional dances. During the show one of the masked dancers apparently startled W so that he fell off his chair (or maybe he had just choked on a pretzel? Shocked

). W was promptly jumped upon by his body guards who believed it was an attempt on his life, while his African hosts stood by in polite embarrasment Rolling Eyes

. (NB: I heard this story told in the Gambia Cool

before anyone this side of the pond had ever heard of W).

So I challenge you to find a bigger non-hero in recent history Laughing

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Re: Favorite Hero and antihero in History

dauer wrote:

There was a thread in the books forum. I thought I'd make one for here

My most beloved antihero is Shabbetai Tzvi. That man was crazy. He was a Jew and very learned. But when he was about 18 he began to become very bipolar. When he was manic he would eat chelev -- forbidden fat -- speak the tetragrammaton, and do other crazy stuff. Eventually he began declaring he was the messiah. But when he was in a normal state he was fine.

He wanted help and he went to this guy named Nathan and explained what was going on. Nathan slept on it and then had a vision. He told him he really was the messiah. They went on a pilgrimage and during this time Nathan convinced Shabbetai it was true. So now Shabbetai's getting worse and worse. He marries a prostitute at one point. He also marries a fish. He declares he's actually God incarnate. And people are believing this. He had many in the Jewish world captivated.

He said he would take the crown of the Turkish ruler. He declared all fast days to be festivals. People all over are having visions of him as messiah. Everywhere he goes there's a crowd of people following him. He goes to the ruler, demands the crown, and is arrested. A while later he's given the option to become Muslim or die. So he converts.

Nathan, his prophet, says he had to go down to a dark and evil place so that he could bring good, and that he was struggling for good. Some people followed him in conversion but practised Sabbatean Judaism secretly. He was a very tormented guy, and Nathan got him to believe himself.

I honestly can't think of any true historical heroes. I'm sure someone else can.

Dauer

Oh sure, 'out' my childhood, and my memories of religious school. Laughing

You know how to find the best Chinese restaurant in your town? Ask the Jews "How's the Mu Shu pork?" Laughing

The particular Jewish community that surrounds me where I live are very interesting folks, including my own family. Let's see...my favorite anti-hero might be my aunt, who in a Martha Stewart trance decided to serve sweetbreads for Passover dinner. That was funny as hell.

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Paaskynen wrote:

...who later handed him the presidency despite him being defeated at the polls.

I had been under the impression that Bush and Gore came to a virtual tie in electoral votes, but that according to the laws and rules in force on the morning of the election, Bush won. It is, and has long been, the business of the American supreme court to hear legal cases with constitutional implications. If you disagree with the reasoning given in their final ruling, what is it about their logic that you consider incorrect?

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cavfancier: Sure, that type of stuff is typical nowadays. But when one of your relatives starts calling themselves God, axing down the doors of a synagogue because they won't let him/her in only to go to the front of the shul and hand off different parts of the world to the rest of your relatives for when their reign as messiah begins, singing Castillian love songs to a torah scroll or attempting to make love to said scroll under a chuppah, call me. That's the Shabbetai I didn't put in my post.

Oh, he also made 30something major sins positive commandments. This includes incest, adultery, etc.

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Hmmm... hero: If he lived, and has acted remotely like the legends say: Sidharta Gautama.
Another more recent one would probably be Gandhi.
Anti Hero? What was the name of that madman that advised one of the romanov czarins again?
Stalin and or Hitler may be more obvious choices however.

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dauer wrote:

cavfancier: Sure, that type of stuff is typical nowadays. But when one of your relatives starts calling themselves God, axing down the doors of a synagogue because they won't let him/her in only to go to the front of the shul and hand off different parts of the world to the rest of your relatives for when their reign as messiah begins, singing Castillian love songs to a torah scroll or attempting to make love to said scroll under a chuppah, call me. That's the Shabbetai I didn't put in my post.

Oh, he also made 30something major sins positive commandments. This includes incest, adultery, etc.

Yikes...sorry for being flippant in my previous post. This is seriously strange.

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Fav Hero...got to be Spartacus...(and I'm NOT him :wink: )

Anti-hero: being a medievalist, HRH Henry VIII of England. A monster, but something of an admirable monster.

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najmelliw wrote:

Hmmm... hero: If he lived, and has acted remotely like the legends say: Sidharta Gautama.
Another more recent one would probably be Gandhi.
Anti Hero? What was the name of that madman that advised one of the romanov czarins again?
Stalin and or Hitler may be more obvious choices however.

So your claiming that stalin, and hitler were heroes? Since the meaning of an antihero is a hero, without the customary characteristics of a hero.

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of course they where heros, its a matter of perspective
they where both heros to hundreds of thousands of people,
and anti-heros to millions

Stalin Median value 51 million killed
(but 20M is shaping up as the lowest credible tally)
Hitler Median Value 15.5 Million killed
(however there was 35M in total that could be attributed to Hitler in one form or another, the above is an estimate of outright murders)

interesting site > http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstats.htm
Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Man-made Megadeaths of the Twentieth Century
alphabetized by conflict > http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstatx.htm
including Selected Death Tolls for Wars, Massacres and Atrocities Before the 20th Century

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Fav Hero.....Steven Segal he just quietly kicks your ass

Fav Anti Hero Satan....

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Favorite Hero and antihero in History

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